Won't start when warm

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by oclv454, Apr 10, 2010.

  1. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    dito. I'm no chemist. What I have gathered from smater people then me is.

    Water, alcohol and sulpher makes sulpheric acid and corodes the fuel pump and injectors.

    Sulpher and phosforus falls out of suspension and builds up on fuel level sensors and injector pentles / nozzles.

    Polymers from hoses builds up in injector nozzles and pentles.

    Gasoline breaks down into it's componant parts over time. Alcohol exascerbates this and Sta-bil does not work in fuel fortified with alcohol.

    We are using techron concentrate fuel system cleaner on our entire new and used fleet and it seems to be working well as a preventative and even has noticable restorative properties on bikes that already have poor injector spray paterns.

    Does sea foam work better or the same and is cheaper?

    Cheaper or better would be great!

    Also, what are your thoughts on fill procedures.

    Right now, new bikes come in the crate with 1/4 gallon of fuel. The fuel is not treated but is alcohol free.

    We add one oz of techron fuel system cleaner and 1 gallon of gas as we are required to test ride as soon as the bike is uncrated. The bike then sits in the showroom until purchased, at which point we fill it the rest of the way with fresh gas.

    On used bikes, since they are always available for test rides, I fill them with gas and 1oz per gallon of techron fsc. These bikes are ridden at least 6 miles once a month by me in addition to test rides.

    Any thoughts on this?

    There is only one me, and I am responcible for run ability on all new and used bikes. Between fueling, exercising, airing tires, charging batteries, fluids and everything else, I have no time to spare as I have many other duties as well.

    But if anyone has any suggestions on improving the condition bikes are delivered in, or cutting labor and chemical costs, I'm all ears.
    #41
  2. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    Joel & all:

    At least where I live, the price of sea foam and techron are roughly the same ... catch them on sale and the are still roughly the same but cheaper ... :lol3

    I can not imagine that Sea foam is MORE effective than techron but I could be wrong... I posted links to the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) in another thread or this one (I can post again if somebody wants them) listing the components for both and seafoam (I mean no offence here...) is rather simple ... and about 1/2 of it is a just a light-weight oil ...

    Please seafoam fans: don't kick my ass ... I have some in the garage... but still I gotta vote for Techron.

    Since it costs so little, perhaps a bit of regular old 2-cycle oil at a ratio of say 100:1 or 150:1 could not hurt the showroom bikes? At 100:1 or better they won't smoke so the customers won't be offended, and the oil could help inhibit corrosion???

    The only other thing I can think of is to find a source for 100% gasoline, (no ethanol...) the only possible sources I can think of might be boat marinas and private airstrips and I don't know the legalities but for a showroom operation we would not be talking about a lot of gallons ???

    I just can't beleive how bad this sucks ... the people of the USA have invested tons of money in advanced equipment only to have it handicapped with crappy gas+ethanol that, in the best case, offers a marginal benefit to the environment.
    Whine whine whine ... where's my beer............. :freaky

    Joel: If I come up with any clever ideas I'll post it's the least I can do for you... and ...

    PS: my daughter just came in asked who Joe-EL was ... Joe-EL??? I say??? What are you talking about it's Joel.

    Her response: Welll if Noel (as in the Christmas song) is No-EL then Joel must be: Joe-EL ... :lol3

    Kids you gotta love 'em!

    Ok ... I'll shut up if it were me: I'd use Techron + a bit of 2-cycle oil.
    #42
  3. Indy Unlimited

    Indy Unlimited Long timer

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    Best Price on Seafoam $6.35 per 16 oz. can with shipping:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JN2EU?ie=UTF8&tag=webbikewcom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0002JN2EU

    Quoted from Seafoam Sales:

    Sea Foam Motor Treatment is a unique 100% pure petroleum oil product, developed to solve specific problems that are common to gasoline, gas/oil mixed fuels & diesel fuels used in all types and styles of 2 cycle, 4 cycle, diesel and Rotary (Wankel type) engines in common use in all automotive, truck, fleet, industrial, agricultural, specialty industries and small engine applications.
    When Sea Foam Motor Treatment is added at 1 ounce per gallon to commonly available 10% & 15 % blended Ethanol fuels as recommended, Sea Foam:
    • Adds lubrication for upper cylinders and vital fuel system components
    • Dries moisture and works as an anti-gel
    • Cleans fuel system residue
    • Stabilizes fuel for up to 2 years or more
    • Cleans carbon deposits from pistons, heads & valves as the engine is run
    Sea Foam has been used in Ethanol fuels (10%, 15% and most recently E-85) successfully since their initial introduction into the marketplace during the 1990’s. As these “New” Ethanol fuels become more widely available nationwide, questions have arisen about the use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment in Ethanol fuels.

    Sea Foam Motor Treatment has been performing its engine component cleaning function in gasoline and diesel engines since 1940, and now it performs this same function just as well in Ethanol-blended fuels. An average one ounce Sea Foam per gallon of Fuel is recommended in both gasoline and in 10% & 15% Ethanol blends.
    Ethanol fuels differ from standard gasoline in a few aspects, presenting potential issues that can be addressed through the use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment.
    1. Ethanol tends to strip engine oil from cylinder walls and can be harsh on exposed surfaces & components that require lubrication. Sea Foam is oil, adding lubrication to upper cylinders that will prolong the life of your engine.
    2. Ethanol absorbs moisture which needs to be removed from the Ethanol. Sea Foam dries moisture from fuel.
    3. Ethanol leaves deposits which periodically need to be cleaned. Sea Foam is a fuel residue and carbon cleaner.
    4. Ethanol deteriorates as fast as non-ethanol fuel, the need to stabilize remains. Sea Foam is the best fuel stabilizer around.
    5. Ethanol burns faster, hotter, & makes about 18% less power than gasoline – characteristics that make it less desirable. This tendency to burn faster and hotter increases the risk of damage from pre-ignition and detonation – especially in engines with carbon build-up in their cylinders. Adding Sea Foam slows down the burn rate of Ethanol to levels resembling standard gasoline.
    1. Ethanol tends to strip engine oil from cylinder walls and can be harsh on exposed surfaces & components that require lubrication. Sea Foam is oil, adding lubrication to upper cylinders that will prolong the life of your engine.
    2. Ethanol absorbs moisture which needs to be removed from the Ethanol. Sea Foam dries moisture from fuel.
    3. Ethanol leaves deposits which periodically need to be cleaned. Sea Foam is a fuel residue and carbon cleaner.
    4. Ethanol deteriorates as fast as non-ethanol fuel, the need to stabilize remains. Sea Foam is the best fuel stabilizer around.
    5. Ethanol burns faster, hotter, & makes about 18% less power than gasoline – characteristics that make it less desireable. This tendency to burn faster and hotter increases the risk of damage from pre-ignition and detonation – especially in engines with carbon build-up in their cylinders. Adding Sea Foam slows down the burn rate of Ethanol to levels resembling standard gasoline.
    Sea Foam recommends 2 ounces of Sea Foam per gallon of E-85 blended fuel for moisture control and added lubrication because of E-85’s MINIMUM 70% ethanol content. (Minnesota labels E-85 as MINIMUM 70% Ethanol content or more)


    THE USE OF SEA FOAM MOTOR TREATMENT IN E-85 FUELS
    Technical Services Department – Sea Foam Sales Company Sea Foam Motor Treatment is a unique 100% pure petroleum oil product that solves specific concerns in engines that use E-85 fuels. Sea Foam recommends adding 2 ounces of Sea Foam Motor Treatment per gallon of E-85 blended fuels for the best results. Always follow instructions for all applications - Use in Fuels, Use by Induction (Air Intake, Main Manifold Vacuum line serving all cylinders or Direct Induction Systems).
    1. Cleans fuel injectors – Add to Fuel or Use Direct Induction System. E-85 leaves deposits on injectors, which periodically needs to be cleaned.
    2. Cleans carbon - Add to Fuel or Use by Direct Induction Systems. E-85 leaves carbon deposits the same as non-ethanol fuels and must be cleaned.
    3. Cleans carburetor jets–Add to Fuel. E-85 leaves residue in carburetors that must be cleaned.
    4. Helps prevent corrosion issues common to E-85 fuels and removes moisture - Add to Fuel. E-85 is corrosive and draws moisture that must be removed.
    5. Adds lubricity – Add to Fuel. E-85 fuel lacks lubrication and is harsh on engine parts. The use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment gives the lubricity needed for less wear on engines.
    6. Stabilizes fuels – Add to Fuel. E-85 becomes stale within 30 days and must be stabilized. Sea Foam Motor Treatment stabilizes fuels for 2 years.
    7. Upper cylinder lubrication–Add to Fuel. E-85 is harsh on engine parts and the use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment gives the lubrication needed for less wear on engine parts.
    8. Cleans catalytic converter odors – Add to Fuel. The use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment helps remove converter odors.
    9. Cleans P.C.V. systems – Add to Fuel. The use of Sea Foam Motor Treatment helps keep P.C.V. Systems clean.
    #43
  4. David_S

    David_S Long timer

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    snip There is only one me, and I am responcible for run ability on all new and used bikes. Between fueling, exercising, airing tires, charging batteries, fluids and everything else, I have no time to spare as I have many other duties as well. snip

    Joel tell the dealer principle to pry open his wallet and hire another tech before you get so burned out you hate your job and it makes you and your family miserable. I'm there but the time factor may be an issue as well, 25 years with the last 20 at the same place. You have too many duties to be flat rate so adding another guy, even a trainee to help out shouldn't effect your income. It sounds like you should have the leverage. Of course if work is your life keep at it but I like to say I work to live not live to work :wink:
    #44
  5. RamblerTim

    RamblerTim Been here awhile

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    So to summarize if I put in about 4 oz of Sea Foam or Techron each time I fill up I should be able to avoid this issue?

    I only have about 230 miles on my bike.

    About how many miles were on your bikes when this started happening?

    I want to be ready will watching my bike when it hits that many miles...
    #45
  6. Indy Unlimited

    Indy Unlimited Long timer

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    one tank after the 600 mile service during the winter and it got worse with each tank until it would start with only one piston and then got worse and would not start again with less than 1,000. miles on her. I am now at 5,200. miles and have had no issues using Seafoam. I believe it keeps the fuel pump and lines from corroding and clogging the fine mist injectors.
    #46
  7. oclv454

    oclv454 Been here awhile

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    The tech at Sierra BMW suggested every 3 or 4 tankfulls. The design of the F800GS tank makes it a pain to fill anyway, and now having to put in fuel additive makes it even more so. The filler neck is just a bit larger than the nozzel of the pump hose. Now with the vapor caps on the hoses you can't really see in the tank to see how it is filling. You also have to jiggle the vapor cap around the gas cap. The first time my bike wouldn't start the dealer suggested that I filled it too full. I may have, but it is hard to get it just right because you can't see what you are doing. oclv
    #47
  8. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    You can take a look at what's in Seafoam right on their website, the govt makes them publish the "MSDS" for it:

    http://www.seafoamsales.com/component/option,com_rokdownloads/Itemid,17/view,folder

    Basically:

    * Pale Oil ~50%
    * Naphtha ~30%
    * IPA (Isopropol Alcohol) ~15%

    "Pale Oil" from what I can find is simply a good quality light-weight machine oil... you know the other two components...
    I ain't say'n it doesn't work, I'm just say'n it ain't a complicated formula...
    I guess I'm also saying it appears to me there's a dang good profit margin in it ... :lol3
    #48
  9. RamblerTim

    RamblerTim Been here awhile

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    I'm curious about what is causing this...

    Is it simply the quality of gasoline in the US?

    If so why haven't more people experienced this problem?

    Does it have something to do with how a person cares for their bike? Riding habits? Habit of filling tank too full?
    Although I would say this is doubtful because the impression I get from these posts are that the individuals who have experienced this take very good care of their bikes.

    Or could it be that some of the F800's are lemons?

    What are your thoughts?
    #49
  10. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    it's completely hit and miss. You can go years without getting a bad tank of gas, but all it takes is one paticularly bad tank full, and you will have problems.

    The USA mandating alcohol in fuel, and failing to police the quality of what stations are pumping is a big contributing factor.

    I am not impressed with the quality of fuel pump or injectors on the F800, but these issues are happening to every make and model of bike, car, and truck.

    The people posting in this thread are a small minority of F800 owners that have had this issue. I'm sure there are hundreds of members that have not.

    When I was working for Volvo a few years back, we saw exactly the same issues.
    #50
  11. novaboy

    novaboy Been here awhile

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    Hey folks,

    Just to let you guys know this problem is also happening on the G650 X bikes. There have been numerous posts over on the Thumpers forum about this. I have an X-Country and have started having the same issues after 3500 miles. I live in Canada and our fuel comes from the refinery down the road, however I don't think there is an ethanol in our gas, and I always use 90 octane. I just had in for servicing so we'll see what happens.
    #51
  12. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now Supporter

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    So they're adding alcohol to fuel with alcohol in it, to combat the effects of alcohol in the fuel?
    #52
  13. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    Well yeah... but it's a different KIND of alcohol.......:freaky
    #53
  14. RamblerTim

    RamblerTim Been here awhile

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    Why did you narrow it down to just Sea Foam & Techron?

    I went to Walmart & they had a shelf full of various engine treatment cleaners. Most of them cost much less than Sea Foam.

    Some of them are:
    Sea Foam $8.97
    Marvel Mystery Oil $12/gallon
    Sta-bil $19.97/1 Quart
    Prestone Gas Treatment $?

    There are many others, so why did you decide on the Sea Foam?
    #54
  15. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    For me.... Quite simple.... Joel says so....:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #55
  16. Motowalt

    Motowalt Been here awhile

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    I had a similar problem with stalling (09 F800GS ~7.5k miles). Stalled 6 x in one afternoon and when I finally made it home it would not start. Had it towed to the dealership via BMW roadside assistance. Computer did not show any fault codes. Dealership replaced the electronic fuel pump controller. Seems to work fine now...will try to put some miles on it to be sure.

    Well, that wasn't quite the problem. Rode the bike 70 miles and stopped and it wouldn't start. I pounded on the fuel pump with my fist and got it to run. Shop replaced the fuel pump and it works now...
    #56
  17. ULELUZE

    ULELUZE Been here awhile

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    This first happened to me a few months ago then nothing. Now it seems to be a problem almost everytime I start it. I was stuck at a gas station for 20 minutes, yet for some reason when I bring it to BMW it starts fine.
    I took a video of it to show to BMW service this time. Sure does make this Bike look like apiece of sh*t to everyone around when I try and start it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAqNNa6Gt9s
    #57
  18. Motowalt

    Motowalt Been here awhile

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    Your bike acts alot like mine did...

    Next time it won't start, call BMW roadside assistance and have them pick it up, or trailer it to the shop yourself...don't continue to try to start it, because I think the weak fuel pump will eventually build up enough pressure to start...

    When you get to the shop immediately show the service manager how it won't start, but don't prolong trying...

    Have them put it on the analyzer or remove the seat and pound on the top of the fuel pump and if it starts that should show them the pump is bad...

    Also call BMW NA and request assistance...it appears to be a common issue...
    #58
  19. tmex

    tmex Long timer

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    I believe this problem is caused by the "cold start" valve associated with any fuel injection system. When the ignition is switched on ECU squirts some fuel into the throttle bodies so the engine can start and the fuel is then metered by the injection system. My Ducati behaved exactly as you describe both warm and cold. I found that if I cycled the key a couple of times (say three or four) before hitting the starter all was well. You could replace the cold start valve, but it would be expensive and unnecessary. If my approach works you could consider a warranty claim.
    #59
  20. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    Tmex:

    Our bikes have a third cold start injector or am I reading you wrong?

    I have a mid-80's Toyota car that indeed has a "cold start injector" mounted in the middle of the intake manifold that serves that purpose, but most of the more recent designs I have seen (cars... not bikes) seem to just use the regular injectors to meet the same need....
    #60