Yamaha T7 TENERE Thread

Discussion in 'Japanese polycylindered adventure bikes' started by VTbeemer, Apr 7, 2017.

  1. Ginger Beard

    Ginger Beard Instagram @motopossum

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Oddometer:
    12,652
    Location:
    FLAT Lander

    :lol3 Seriously, I own a bike with the same engine as the T7. It's power delivery is perfect for an off-road touring application as is the way in which the bike's weight is managed. My FZ07 feels much lighter than the specs suggest. If it gained another 20lbs due to larger fuel capacity, high spec adjustable suspension and a stronger frame, it would still be extremely manageable off-road and still have a very good power to weight ratio. As someone that has been riding/racing off-road nearly his whole life I'm one of the first to wish that all adv bikes were sub 300lbs with formula 1 power to weight but at some point practicality has to play a role on a touring bike. There are plenty of race bred dual sports in the marketplace to choose from. What is missing is a high spec middleweight adv rig that is slanted towards offroad riding. That is the niche that many of us would like to see filled.
    victor441 likes this.
  2. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,180
    Location:
    Minnesota, Up Near The Arctic Circle
    A Super Ténéré owner and lover of how 270° twins perform -- this looks like a very interesting bike, but, the MT/FZ-O7 engine plan has a very deep sump design, and short angle head that parks the crank and a awful lot of mass rather high for an ADV power-plant. The short head angle also going to mitigate a conventionally placed fuel tank which is going to carry fuel higher on the bike. All of this with the beefier frame, longer travel larger bore suspension components -- isn't going to mean just a bike that's probably a lot heavier then some anticipate for this displacement, it looks like it's going to park a lot of weight high on the bike. Of course how much of a compromise that is for you will depend on how and where you ride, but it could be a source of disappointment for some if the bike feels heavier then bikes that actually are heavier.
    mminob likes this.
  3. Ginger Beard

    Ginger Beard Instagram @motopossum

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Oddometer:
    12,652
    Location:
    FLAT Lander

    I've read this before and understand the concern but I've yet to hear it from anyone with real world experience aboard a bike equipped with this power plant. This 689cc power plant has a similar layout to that of the cb500x engine and that engine works very well in ADV guise even when the bike is lifted several inches with the Rally Raid kit ( a bike with a very reasonable for adv travel 9.3 inches of ground clearance). My buddy with a KTM690 couldn't believe how much lighter my FZ "feels" compared to his bike. Granted it is several inches lower than the 690 but Yamaha would really have to screw the pooch in order to make this bike feel heavier or even as heavy as other similarly displaced ADV bike plus this one looks to have actual off road capabilities. I've flogged my FZ07 on dirt roads, jeep double tack and a few times off road and can attest from first hand experience that this engine is perfect for an adventure rig.


    KIMG0364.JPG


    Curious about something. What made you choose to purchase the S10 over the GS when the GS is not only physically lighter weight but carries it's weight much lower?
  4. kvango

    kvango Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Oddometer:
    563
    Location:
    USA
    S10 owner here too, waiting to see what Yamaha comes up with. Here is the 700 in a different package, which unfortunately is not available in the USA. 410 lbs, 3.7 gallons -
    [​IMG]

    http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/07/2...first-look-review-photos-video-specifications
    Hoak likes this.
  5. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,180
    Location:
    Minnesota, Up Near The Arctic Circle
    It's not really my concern it's an observations as I have bikes I'm very happy with. It would take a home run here, probably with a dedicated power plant, rather then the economy approach Yamaha is taking to interest me; but I think I'm likely more open to pleasant surprises then some would be enthusiasts are to disappointment (hence my post).

    Apples and oranges anecdotal comparisons, operating as you appear to be on the basis of enthusiasm and assumptions -- may disappoint you.

    Several inches, the CG of the FZ-07 is about seven inches lower -- of course it 'feels lighter'; this isn't a very insightful or useful observation.

    Let's see similar displacement ADV bikes? Like a BMW F700GS 460 lbs with nothing on it... Add just basic things that BMW doesn't include in that measurement like a center stand as everything is an accessory with BMW and it's a bike that teeters at 500 lbs wet.

    I think a lot of people will be disappointed by the high CG, and the power to weight that Yamaha will have to come in at to meet E4 and have something that can honestly serve an ADV audience. Things like decent sub-frame for those that want to put panniers on (has to be a lot beefier then a street bike to take the shock and stress of rough roads with the additional weight) really beefy laterally stiff forks (the BMW's are light weight junk) add inevitable weight.

    But if it has decent suspension, a slight bump in the low end torque over the FZ-07 to manage the weight, a lower first gear and WR transmission -- it could be a really fun and versatile bike. But it will be both heavy and top heavy, more so than your buddies KTM690...
    dudeonweb likes this.
  6. Ginger Beard

    Ginger Beard Instagram @motopossum

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Oddometer:
    12,652
    Location:
    FLAT Lander

    To me a home run would be a wr700r in a sub 420lbs range.

    Cb500x Rally Raid is the only bike in It's segment and I'm hoping this bike from Yamaha is a production version of some direct competition with the cb500x RR so. Based upon what I see regarding the T7 concept it appears to be likely that's what we'll get. No more anecdotal than your suppositions regarding CG. Both of us will have to wait for actual tests and specs for hard facts. As someone that not only owns a bike with this configuration but has built dual sport conversions of other bikes, ridden quite a few conversion builds from other builders and sampled the only marketed bike that comes close to the T7 concept , I'm going to say that the idea that raising this engine 4-5" isn't going to drastically change the cg.


    Regarding power to weight. The FZ07 makes fantastically usable power from right off idle clean to redline and will cruise all day at 80-85mph while being equally happy chugging along at 10mph in first and that's fully loaded,two up (real world experience with that exact type of riding). This powerplant needs zero changes for an off-road adv application.


    You currently own a heavy bike with a tall deep sump engine. Does it's CG diminish it's virtues? And given that there are lighter bike with better weight distribution and more power, why did you choose that one?
  7. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,180
    Location:
    Minnesota, Up Near The Arctic Circle
    Good luck! I doubt we'll see less then 495 lbs on a mass produced 700cc commodity ADV motorcycle from a manufacture that has to answer to tons of regulation, meet the expectations of a broad ADV audience, and be reasonably priced -- soon enough we'll know for a fact.

    Of course if you throw enough money at something you can hit any engineering target for weight that doesn't defy the laws of physics -- but just do the math on desirable, sanely priced components for a bike like this and it's pretty ridiculous to assume it will be anything under 450 lbs unless it's weighed dry, without tires, center-stand, and suspension components or priced so only Jeff Bezoz can afford it.

    But again I don't think weight will be the limiting factor of the appeal of this bike, to me, or a broader audience CG will play much bigger, as will how well the transmission ratios matches the limitations of power:weight and torque:rpm/weight, and the quality of the suspension components that go on the bike.

    That would be your opinion, belief, and preference I understand -- whether it satisfies other people's expectations and needs on a real ADV platform remains to be seen...

    You equate one thing with another, and again make apples and oranges comparisons that are non sequiturs. The Super Ténéré's twin is a purpose built engine exclusively for this motorcycle; it has a much steeper 30° included head angle that gets the crank much lower on the bike relative to the axles, and the fuel tank far lower then can be accomplished on an FZ-07 -- the CG is so low on the Super Ténéré even petite women can pick this bike up, it's not easy but it's doable and far easier then many other bikes in the class.

    More power was not a consideration for me, that assumption is all yours -- (torque/RPM:weight)/economy was a consideration. Weight distribution is fine, what bike offers 'better' weight distribution that isn't riddled with far larger and more limiting issues?

    I'll be the first to admit my criterion for a good ADV may not be in the main stream, I also own a Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX and consider it in many regards superior to the Super Ténéré. If you want to know why I chose the Super Ténéré over some other bike, you'd have to specify the bike...
    Junglejeff1 likes this.
  8. OHjim

    OHjim Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Oddometer:
    949
    Location:
    KC
    Hoak - You may have come late to the party here, because all of that has been discussed ad-nauseum on the original XTZ thread. Unfortunately, this thread is a reclamation of when some mod screwed up and merged the original XTZ thread with the Vstrom thread. So a lot of what you are discussing is over there. Everyone wants their unicorn, but no one will get it. Everything is a compromise and we'll just have to wait and see.

    Look at the MT-07 Tracer. It's not 495 lbs. It and the FT-07 are good indicators of what the XTZ could be.
  9. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,180
    Location:
    Minnesota, Up Near The Arctic Circle
    I'm responding, here, not 'over there' where ever 'there' is/was now.

    Yes, let's do that, together: a claimed 432 lbs wet with 4 gallons of gas. Do the mental arithmetic, add: at least a 45mm (47 would be nice) fork with 7" of travel (want more travel it's going to cost you), beefier triple clamps, a damper in back with similar travel and beef, beefier swing arm, beefed up sub-frame, beefed up head-set, rally furniture and lets say they stay with a 4 gallon tank.

    Even using expensive aftermarket products that would price this bike out of the market I get 55 lbs added, now add E4 and DOT compliant emissions crap that's ADV rugged and other road legal compliance hardware and let's pretend they spend a lot of money and do the hardware all in plastic so only 8 lbs over the naked street bike with this power plant and now were up 63 lbs... I doubt they can even do that as practical numbers based on how Yamaha builds ADV and off-road bikes would have a net component weight of more like 73 lbs.

    But again, weight is your and Ginger Beard's pet wish unicorn fancy, I'm more interested with where it goes on the bike, how they manage it with the torque profile of the engine, gearing, and the suspension components it gets for mass produciton...
  10. OHjim

    OHjim Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Oddometer:
    949
    Location:
    KC
    Hoak - I apologize for responding to you hoping to explain things. You are obviously the smartest one on this thread and far be it from me to question that. :photog
    DooSki and Ginger Beard like this.
  11. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,180
    Location:
    Minnesota, Up Near The Arctic Circle
    Wow, nasty petty sarcasm, great discussion! YOU WON!
  12. Kome

    Kome Adventurer

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Oddometer:
    57
    Location:
    Prague
  13. Ginger Beard

    Ginger Beard Instagram @motopossum

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Oddometer:
    12,652
    Location:
    FLAT Lander

    I'm beginning to get the impression (or rather,that's how your pists are coming across) that you simply wish to argue rather than discuss but I'll give this another shot.

    The current FZ07 is extremely low spec bordering on cheap as shit yet it still manages to keep it's weight the lowest in class. The fork and the bodywork (much of which is superfluous) are heavy. There's quite a bit of weight hidden in this bike. Several FZ07 owners have gotten under 330lbs wet with a little ingenuity (like fork/triple clamp swaps and the use of aftermarket products. From the facts about fz07 weight and how it's carries that weight in the real world, I belive that your predictions about cg may be premature. I'll be pretty annoyed if it comes out feeling like a Strom.


    You keep mentioning a top heaviness that you believe to be inherent in the 689cc powerplant. Is this speculative guessing on your part or do you have real data (ie: independent weights for reciprocating components, a chart demonstrating weight distribution characteristics of this engine,etc) to support this claim? My real world ownership experience and the data that I have seen from teams campaigning race versions of this engine say otherwise.


    Regarding power, you mentioned that if it had a "..bump in low end torque to manage the weight and wr transmission with a lower first gear it could be fun and versatile ". That did come across you believing this bike would need more low end power and different gearing to work as an adv rig. The reality is that this bike will lug along in first gear with characteristics more akin to a thumper yet pull at highway speeds like a smallcc sport bike. It's actually better suited to dual sport use than my buddies 690 which surprised both of us. It's truly geared perfectly for ADV use and delivers it's power/torque in equally flawless fashion. It wouldn't surprise me if this was Yamaha's intent from inception.

    Regarding tall engines, I was referring to tge Guzzi. What criteria/attributes caused you to choose the Super Ten? On paper there are lighter weight bikes with similar features. In the real world the difference in the sensation of weight between the S10 and the GSA is pretty drastic. I found the S10 to feel down right heavy compared to a GSA. Oddly I'd never want to own a GS and enjoyed the S10 far more. Go figure.
  14. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,180
    Location:
    Minnesota, Up Near The Arctic Circle
    Does a discussion mean I have to agree with you? I'd love to be wrong, and would much rather be wrong and pleasantly surprised, then be right. How about you?

    What you or anyone believes is going to have little effect on Yamaha's production outcome.

    No data, just forty-five years of racing, building and riding over 1.1 million miles on motorcycles. Just doing some basic common sense measurements of where parts go into a frame that accommodates a long travel suspension, the position of the crank and fuel tank relative to the axles will generally give you a pretty good idea how it's going to feel.

    Again, third time, you're welcome to your beliefs, wishes and preferences and to express them here; are you suggesting I'm not? I'm not pretending that I know I'm right -- but my trivial pittance of experience tells me I probably will be; which will only make you and OHjim dislike me more -- if I'm wrong I'll be thrilled, and you can gloat and ask for all the virtual head pats and praise you want and I'll gladly offer them up.

    Its measured CG is in fact not higher then the GSA -- those perceptual differences there are more down to front end geometry of the leading link lash-up on the Beemo and conventional fork on the XTZ - and are less apparent if you ride both bikes a lot. But summarily my criterion included cost of ownership, fuel economy, reliability, how the bike ergonomically fits me, torque:RPM/weight, and except for valve lash adjustment it's much easier to service and maintain -- anyone that thinks a modern BMW boxer ADV bike is simple to service hasn't worked on one, there's far more disassembly then you might assume.
  15. Motosapian

    Motosapian Long timer

    Joined:
    May 31, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,384
    Location:
    Minnesota
    All Yamaha has to do is make it more road worthy than a klr and more off road worthy than the Africa twin. Shouldn't be too hard. You want to tour on a KTM 690 have at it.
  16. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,180
    Location:
    Minnesota, Up Near The Arctic Circle
    I think you nailed it! I hope they see the 'hole' and aim for it!
    27rich likes this.
  17. Ginger Beard

    Ginger Beard Instagram @motopossum

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Oddometer:
    12,652
    Location:
    FLAT Lander

    You're taking this awfully personally man.

    I hope you're wrong. You could be right but years of racing, building and fabrication tell me otherwise. Time will tell.

    The facts about gearing and power are simply that. Whether or not people wish for more power or don't like agearing spread that allows crawling through singletrack and zipping down the highway with equal ease will be a personal choice. I can't account for opinion.

    In the end whether either of us is correct matters only to the sales volume. No head pats or high fives needed, just market share.

    Take care man.
    OHjim likes this.
  18. Ginger Beard

    Ginger Beard Instagram @motopossum

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Oddometer:
    12,652
    Location:
    FLAT Lander

    Yup.:beer
  19. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,180
    Location:
    Minnesota, Up Near The Arctic Circle
    LOL what? I think it's more like you're awfully assuming. While I'd like to see some competition heat up in this sector 'in the end' I don't give a flying f-bomb about 'being correct' or 'sales volume' or 'market share' -- popularity has never been the arbiter of anything great. If I like it I'll buy it, if I don't I won't care who likes or buys it. My personal investment here is "zero" taking anything here personally on an anonymous forum would be impossible -- this must be some kind of millennial thinking or assumption. It has been very entertaining though; just like the A-Twin thread that went off the Unicorn rails into nut-bar territory -- lot of ire and disappointment there...

    Toodles...
  20. Ginger Beard

    Ginger Beard Instagram @motopossum

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Oddometer:
    12,652
    Location:
    FLAT Lander

    I wish I were young enough to be a millennial. :(


    Apparently the internet doesn't covey tone very well in either direction.
    limey1 likes this.