You guys think Harley Davidson will last?

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by tessalino, Aug 24, 2019.

  1. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    I don't think you understand what I am saying. All this is absolutely fascinating but a bit irrelevant. Throttle position is just a rheostat that feeds the signal into ECU, you can assign any number to it. With a motor as superior in power as Ducati's, one could come up with a mapping that imitated the response of the Harley motor to a fraction of percent, at higher RPM of course. It's a simple mapping table of turn angle of the throttle to the power output. Yes it will grossly underutilize the potential of the Ducati motor, and is unlikely to find many buyers, but it illustrates how inferior and antiquated Harley motor is.

    That's what suspension is for. If the weight was an advantage, Ducati would come up with bolt-on 100 lbs led blocks to enhance comfort.
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  2. Big John Sny

    Big John Sny Long timer

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    I understand what you are saying, but your understanding is wrong, or at least oversimplified. The ecu only controls fuel volume, the amount of fiel the air can carry and keep in suspension determines the amount of fuel that can effectively be burned. This is fixed by the engine geometry. Also, the amount of air/fuel mix that can enter the cylinder for a given set of circumstances (volumetric efficiency) is also fixed for a given set of engine geometry. So every engine has their geometry set up to be ideal at one location. Everywhere else in the throttle position, RPM, and load is some compromise.
    You can broaden this map, but this is always at the cost of peak numbers.
    Recent years, there has been some new technology such as variable cam timing and variable valve lift that can broaden these maps some without sacrificing top end. This is what I currently design for new cars and have 10 patents on. The easiest way to see how this works is to look at the BFSC curves for an engine. They show where the engine is, and is not able to efficiently turn the fuel delivered into power. You can see in the one below, the new updated engine in this circumstance has a larger island where it is able to effectively turn the fuel into power, even though the old,less advanced engine actually makes more peak power. The engine on the right will have much better throttle response at partial throttle positions and be a more drivable machine.
    07D5C4A1-7519-4FBD-9B1F-A0FF02575EA3.png
    So you see, just adding more fuel doesn’t fix the problem of poor low throttle position power. So no, just changing the ecu tuning of the Ducati motor,it will still never have the low throttle position response of the Harley engine. The Ducati is an extremely oversquare engine with shorter rods and more valve face area. They have added the variable cam technology to the Ducati to attempt to regain a little, but the physical parts in question do not allow what you are saying to be possible without changing out these physical parts. This is the same as the people who put new cylinders and cams in the Harley motor to make over 200 hp. https://www.mcnews.com.au/alpha-performance-engines-ape-143-harley/
    The same trade offs can go both ways, but they require changing physical parts.
    So, as I have said before, this is not about modern vs antiquated. Just a trade off to provide different strengths that different consumers might like.
    As far as antiquated, The Desmo valve train was designed in the 1800's and began being used in race engines in the 1950's to overcome problem of float and breakage caused by unstable valve spring frequencies. This problem has been overcome for nearly 50 years by overy other manufacturer (including Harley) by simply making the spring bee hive shaped. This is applied in every modern car, even the ones with zero performance at all. Instead Ducati still chooses to employ the 1950's desmo system that is more expensive, harder to service, and provides zero performance benefit. This is just a fashion statement hanging on to antiquated, outdated technology just for the purpose of making them different.

    All of that to say, you cant add more or less fuel volume into the engine to change its partial throttle performance. This would only change the fuel ratio and make it perform more poorly.

    Again, an oversimplification. There are two big jobs of the suspension, one of them is to control vehicle dynamics and improve control. This is a control of the relative movement of the tire to the road, and more critically proviide a minimum force as much as possible to the road surface. The second job is comfort. This is the control of the relative position of the bike to the rider. These two jobs can correspond to each other in some conditions, but typically do not. In the case of bike mass, the two actually oppose each other. In building the Diavel, Ducati did in fact make it much heavier than their sport bikes. This is the reason the Diavel handles much more like a Fat Bob than it does like the Pinangali. (you know I have riden all three, as we have discussed before), Both the Fat Bob and the Diavel, emply staged (cartridge) damping, both have inverted forks, both have single shock progressive link rear suspension, ect. The technology in the Harley is not more antiuated than the Ducati. The Ducati is tuned more for the performance rather than comfort ends of the spectrum. Some customers will like one more and some will like the other. Not better engineering, just tuned for different preferences. Bike weight, chassis stiffness, suspension tuning, weight balance, all play a role in this.

    My personal engine performance characteristic preference is more balanced, probably closer to the ducati, althogh the M8 engine has gotten closer to this.
    My personal Suspension Characteristic performance is more balanced also, but now that I am racing on the track, I find I ride more relaxed on the street and do not put full use to a sporty suspension and am ok drifting more towards the comfort end of the suspension spectrum. The day after last years 6 hour endurance race, I rode the Harley and my Ducati sat in the garage untouched. :lol3 My legs were killing me.

    The antiquated technology talk and the better/vs worse engine rhetoric is just false. It shows lack of understanding of the physics behind it. Engineering trade offs are engineering trade offs. The question, is are customers interested in the trade offs that Harley is currently offering.
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  3. sluagh

    sluagh not fade away

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    This is not entirely true. On a lot of bikes the ECU controls both the fuel and throttle.

    Also heavier does not equal better ride. Does a dump truck ride better than a Prius? My Harley softail had a much harsher ride than my 300 lb lighter KTM.
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  4. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    No, you are not listening. You are still talking about the engine at its peak power at given RPM, and assuming I am talking about pushing more fuel. I am talking about pushing less fuel and air. Did it register? Good.

    Let's look at this picture:

    [​IMG]

    Imagine you don't care about engine RPM - and why would you? - and change Diavel's final gear ratio so the rear wheel torque is above that of the Harley's. This way, at ANY given angle of the twist of the throttle handle, Diavel would produce more acceleration force than Harley. Now you can limit that force by mapping down the angle->fuel output curve. Makes sense yet?

    Say, you double the final drive ratio, since Ducati has the double RPM range, it will be *way* above Harley at every point of the range. I am not saying Ducati *should* do it, I am saying Ducati *could* do it, and trounce Harley motor at its own game.

    Now back to the RPM, the ONLY advantage of Harley motor is, while being slower, heavier, and less efficient, you can feel individual pulsations of the engine. While one cannot argue with taste, in my mind, it's an idiotic reason to stick with the otherwise inferior engine. That's what I mean under "antiquated".

    Again, I disagree. By having less weight and more expensive suspension components, Diavel is both more comfortable and more performance-oriented than the Harley. At least to me, there was no comparison, I can ride on Diavel all day, and Harley gave me back pain after half-hour. That's what I mean under "superior", as opposed to a different trade-off.
  5. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    Err should have had HP curve with the torque one. Here it is:

    [​IMG]
  6. Big John Sny

    Big John Sny Long timer

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    sorry, I don't think I can argue with you about this. You do not seem to understand how engines function at a level I can discuss this with you. You are showing a wide open throttle curve. My point is, the curve you are showing is a completely meaningless curve. and has no relation to partial throttle conditions. You cant even somehow work backwards back into them, they are totally unrelated. That is the point.
    A BSFC curve of the Harley and the Diavel would be useful, and we could gain something. If you even had a 25% and 50% throttle position curve we could start to get there.
    One day I will learn to quit discussing engineering related subjects with people on the internet. I'm out.
  7. borderlinebob

    borderlinebob Been here awhile

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    Big John
    This internet person you refer to here on this thread absolutely wears one down.
    Numerous instances of other folks just giving up and in some cases probably blocking him.
    Like a pesky fly or little Chiwawa that always has to get the last nip.
    Best leave them behind.
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  8. BetterLateThanNever

    BetterLateThanNever It turns out you can't delete your account...

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    Happy for you. That is the point of a motorcycle, at least in this part of the world. On good days, I feel tremendous pity for people who turn them into something to fight about. On bad days, well...
  9. BobcatSig

    BobcatSig They call me... Huckajawea

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  10. BetterLateThanNever

    BetterLateThanNever It turns out you can't delete your account...

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    Probably just the start. Harley's attempt to reinvent itself - 'More Roads' - was going to take patience and a willingness to burn capital, two things a hedge fund isn't interested in. They are now in milking mode, which is sad to see. And what some internet haters don't seem to realize - or at least, I hope they don't - is that fomenting all this antipathy eventually depreciates the value of a brand, further discouraging its owners from doing anything bold. All because they don't like a product nobody is forcing them to buy.

    I wish those folks would turn their guns on cable companies.
  11. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    I wish the arguments on internets could influence the board of directors, they would've been shipping Triumphised Sportsters a long time ago. They don't care.
  12. RightChoice

    RightChoice Been here awhile

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    I do not think that HD will be around in a couple years.
  13. glory racing

    glory racing Been here awhile

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    Looks like Harley is going to have some North American competition:

    At a press conference late Monday, the CEO of Johnson Marine, makers of Johnson outboard marine engines and other recreational equipment, unveiled a new line of heavyweight cruiser style motorcycles designed to compete head to head with industry leader Harley-Davidson. Peter Long, Johnson brands marketing manager said, "We have studied the market and determined that Harley, while highly successful, has narrowly missed the mark when targeting motorcycle buyers". Long added, "We, at Johnson, are convinced our product hits the target dead center and promises to draw sales away from Harley-Davidson in a way no other motorcycle has been able to accomplish".

    The new line of bikes, marketed under the name 'Big Johnson Motorcycles', will, according to Long, deliver what Harley has only promised. "Our research show that this, "Big Johnson" is what Harley buyers are really after". At the unveiling of the new line Monday, several current Harley owners agreed. "When I bought my Harley, what I really needed was a Big Johnson", said one Harley owner." But I see now that riding a Harley is no replacement for having a Big Johnson."

    Manager Long also said that his company would follow the lead of Harley-Davidson and cash in on a huge market for non motorcycle related products. "We realize that not every guy can have a Big Johnson", said Long, "But image is very important to people. If they don't have a Big Johnson, they at least want to project the image of having one."

    Asked if he anticipated Big Johnson's showing up in the hands of Harley owners, Long said it was unlikely. "I just don't see the need to have a Harley if you have a Big Johnson", he said. "And I can't imagine someone who spends all their resources to acquire a Harley having a Big Johnson. I think it boils down to this - You either have a Harley, or you have a Big Johnson, but you are not likely to have both. "Given the choice", said Long. " I think most guys will opt for the Big Johnson". Another force driving sales for the company will come from women. A survey of the wives and girlfriends of nearly 1,000 potential motorcycle buyers indicates less than 5% would approve of their partner spending $15,000 on a Harley Davidson. But, when asked if they would be willing to pay the same amount of money to get their partner a Big Johnson, nearly 4 out 5 thought that would be money well spent.

    One female present at the product unveiling was quoted as saying, "There is no way I will let Lonnie drop 15 grand on another one of those Harley's, but 15 grand to get him a Big Johnson? Well, now that's something we could both enjoy and it's something he really needs."
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  14. RightChoice

    RightChoice Been here awhile

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    Make Big Johnson great again!

    I loved those T-shirts when I was a kid ... Big Johnson Hook & Ladder, etc.
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  15. sluagh

    sluagh not fade away

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    Lame.
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  16. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    FIFY
  17. EdM

    EdM Been here awhile Supporter

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    Is it April 1 already??
  18. anotherguy

    anotherguy Long timer

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    Yeah............

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  19. windmill

    windmill Long timer

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    Not having a dog in this fight, I'm highly amused by the irony of the insecurities displayed by some perpetuating stereotypes to make them feel better about themselves.
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  20. oldgrizz

    oldgrizz Long timer Supporter

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    You think Harleys are a waste?
    How about BMW making a 1600 c.c. 6 cylinder monster that needs reverse so the ones smoking a pipe and wearing slippers can back it up after parking it.
    It has to have electronic locks on the luggage because they are too lazy to use a key in a lock.
    It costs as much as a Harley and takes forever to do an oil change or a valve set.


    There...now let the gates of he'll open.
    I have stirred the pot
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