Your 200hp bike does not belong on the street.

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by 81forest, Feb 18, 2015.

  1. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer Supporter

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    Thank you for the article.

    So 200hp is too much for the street and being the responsible citizen KTM won't make one. However they will make one for something north of $100,000 dollar US for those who want to buy it to do trackdays.

    Got it.

    Here's how I read this: We simply can't compete in the big HP street arena with our current designs so we choose not to. But we'll be happy to supply a bike we didn't have to go to the effort to make street legal for about 3-4 times what you could buy a comparable bike for from some other manufacturers so that the you can still ride Team Orange for trackdays. AS a bonus it won't have those pesky lights and turn signals that are so expensive to replace when damaged on the motorcycle you paid 100k+ for, since you can't ride it on the street anyway...
    #61
  2. 81forest

    81forest ADDRider

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    It's not a track day bike... it's a factory race bike. People who compete seriously do a lot more than pulling their blinkers and lights off. This is a bike that would be ready to compete at a top level, right out of the box, and they're offering factory support.

    I read it differently. I don't care about the big HP street arena, because it doesn't make sense when you're going to catch a felony for using more than 1/3 of the bike's capability. It's a ridiculous race to nowhere. Other manufacturers will keep making the busas and 1400cc mega bikes because people will keep paying for them. But that's a cultural identity thing, we are obsessed with horsepower numbers. It's not about actual performance that you can really use, in my opinion.

    Meanwhile, there is the RC390 for entry level racers. A street legal bike that will stomp on everything else in its class, is ready to hit the track with a new set of tires, and costs less than $6,000. While the big four are "winning" the big HP street arena, KTM is grabbing the market out from under them. (Guilty: :bert)

    Sounds good to me. I want one.

    [​IMG]
    #62
    RickB1975 likes this.
  3. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer Supporter

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    I would agree. However I'm just going by the quotes in the article stating it would be made available for those interested in picking one up for trackday use.

    I'm sure it will be a badass bike. When you get north of 6 figures for a motorcycle it better be a badass.

    What race series that John Q public would be likely to enter that this bike will qualify to run in since they have stated it won't be homologated. Pretty sure that eliminates all the amateur series and most of the pro-series. That leaves Moto-GP itself as about the only major series it could legally run in.

    He mentioned trackdays because that's about the only place you could run one unless you're in moto-gp. That makes it nothing BUT a trackday bike for John Q Public. If someone wants one that's great. Call me a skeptic but I don't believe that KTM isn't planning to put it out on the street just out of a sense of public duty...
    #63
  4. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Long timer Supporter

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    I read it a little differently. He states that it is impossible to argue that a Superbike with 200+ hp belongs on the street and doesn't have a place on public roads. I'll certainly support a person's right to buy whatever they want and can afford, but I have not read an arguement yet for a 200+ hp sportbike in all the pages of this thread.

    Sure, owning and riding around on a 200+ hp sportbike could boost an insecure ego but just how would a person use all 200 hp (not 200 hp limited to 170 by electronic controls) on a public road that would not fall under the category of reckless driving? Are there road legal tires available, that under normal operating conditions, offer sufficient traction to put 200+ hp to full use? How would a person sufficiently warm any tire on public roads to make use of 200 hp?
    #64
  5. Roadracer_Al

    Roadracer_Al louder, louder, louder!

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    No, our only track outings are when a MFG invites the magazine to the press launch, and because we're a small/local mag, we don't have the budget for me, the downtrodden artist, to travel. Jackboot of the man, you know. :deal

    I **really** liked the SuperDuke.

    Linky linky:

    http://citybike.com/includes/upload/back_issue/cb_2014-06.pdf
    #65
  6. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    One may not be able to use all 200 HP on the street, but having 200HP available in your street bike to take to track days is eminently justifiable.

    Honestly, you can very rarely if ever use more than 100HP in a bike legally on any public road in the US. You can top triple digits with a bike with little more than half that HP, and that is illegal on EVERY public road in the US and in most countries around the world. For a company to argue that their 170-some HP bike is okay while someone's 200HP bike is unjustifiable is specious at best.
    #66
  7. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    That is a very good point. I believe what has brought all of this to attention (which still does not go against your point above), is that the 200hp mark, because of it being a round number and all, has called the attention of the public, the legislators, the community at large to what motorcycles are available to the consumer for street use.

    Again, I agree, 200hp is not too different than 170hp, or even 150hp for street use. Heck, I used to have a 48hp machine that would reach the 100mph speed!

    But it is like when people discussed the "ton" in the 30's, 40's and 50's. Now we are discussing the 200hp when a handful of street legal bikes reached this mark.

    To be honest, although all of the above is true, and a 48hp machine will hit speeds to put someone in jail here in Oregon (or have the machine confiscated), we are at a historic (albeit arbitrary) point where, agreeing with the KTM boss, we need to ask ourselves: where do we go from here?
    #67
  8. mishaparem

    mishaparem Adventurer

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    I believe in Darwinism, and laws should not interfere in this process. If a person is dumb enough to get on a 200HP bike without building up to it, that's survival of the mentally fittest. Any laws that interferes with that process just makes it possible for our society to keep nannying the idiots, and wasting time and effort best spent elsewhere. Like for instance, the education system whose job it is to teach students to first get all the information, weigh the risks, make their own decisions whether or not to take those risks, and then take accountability for their actions.

    That being said, I've reached the limit of safe speeds on the street using a 600cc supersport. Pushing any farther on the street will just get me killed, so I will keep pushing my boundaries on the track. That doesn't mean I will never ride a 200hp bike on the street. Test driving the BMW HP4 made me realise that I am not experienced enough to buy that bike yet, but I will continue to build up to that, and then the supercharged Kawasaki eventually.... On the track.
    #68
  9. catweasel67

    catweasel67 RD04

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    And in your Darwinian world - the weak/dumb never kill anyone else?
    #69
  10. mishaparem

    mishaparem Adventurer

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    Most of my time on the road consists of me on the freeway. In towns there aren't that many pedestrians, and in a city, an unskilled motorcyclist will find it hard to do anything other than stay on his bike.

    On other topics I would take a slightly different stance, but a dumb biker on a 200hp machine is more likely to kill himself than come remotely close to hurting others IMO.

    Edit: By the way, I think nannies endanger others more than they keep the dumb from getting hurt. Example: without a wheelie nanny, a biker might loop his bike off of a stop light. With a nanny, the biker might wheelie, drop the wheel down wrong, and send the bike rocketing onto a sidewalk with people on it.
    #70
  11. 81forest

    81forest ADDRider

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    True, it must be nice to know it's there.. :evil

    I don't think Pierer is saying that no one should be able to have a 200hp bike on the street (although maybe he is). I read it as more of a business decision, i.e. we're not going to make a 200+plus HP bike because it does not make sense from a manufacturer's perspective. Not out of philanthropy, just business.

    I always find it interesting that when I go to the track and watch the fastest guys, the difference between the 600s and the liter bikes is usually about 2-3 seconds per lap time, or no difference at all... even with a 50hp advantage on the bigger bikes. :hmmmmm

    But 'mericans are always gonna want moar pow'r...
    #71
  12. TM1(SS)

    TM1(SS) Matthew 24:36, Ride today, ride now :-)

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    :rofl:rofl
    #72
  13. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    Just because many, perhaps most, riders cannot put 200HP to full use even on the track does not negate the advantage of more powers in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Not that I am one of those. Far from it.

    There is a reason that in racing no one intentionally fields a lower powered bike. Everyone tries to maximize the power output without hurting other key performance parameters.
    #73
  14. aldend123

    aldend123 Long timer

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    It's a good thing the current conservative party has never advocated for laws telling people what they can and can't do. Like vices, abortion, or marriage. Gat dang liberals at it agiiin! NOBAMA, amirite?



    Is it possible manufactures will self-limit the way they did top speeds? Maybe by selling "race" tunes to unlock the true horsepower as a dealership accessory, or requiring basic modifications? Car companies did something like this in the 70-80's didn't they? Underrating cars, or putting restrictive exhausts on?
    #74
  15. ttpete

    ttpete Rectum Non Bustibus

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    I believe that they gear the bike tall to help pass emissions. I went down 1 tooth on the countershaft sprocket and it's a lot nicer, especially in traffic.
    #75
  16. car94

    car94 What's this Box for?

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    Why would anyone want a Motrcycle with 175HP or even 150HP. People are crazy, you know what will happen they will buy a ZX14 after crashing their 10R and then will modify it until it puts 207HP to the rear tire and kill themself and others and wont be able to buy another High HP bike and travel all over the country watching races and sneaking the bike onto tracks!
    Oh the Humanities.

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    [​IMG]
    :D
    #76
  17. Wraith Rider

    Wraith Rider Banned

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    But it's not your opinion - or that of Stefan Pierer - that defines what really can be used. It's all about physics - and maybe a little bit about laws.

    Has anyone ever given a plausible argument AGAINST a 200+hp sportbike on public roads?

    That's really easy to answer.
    Let's take an up to date BMW S1000RR with 146kW and a maximum allowed operating mass (including rider, pillion and luggage) of 407kg. Now for discussion's sake let's assume an efficency from the crank to the road of 85% (that's reasonable) and maximum grip that allows for an acceleration of 1g what's roughly 10m/s² - that's reasonable as well for public road use, even my sport-touring tires can do this and the centre of gravity of a sportbike should be just low enough to allow that.
    As we all know, P = F * v = m * a * v so in our case the formula

    v = P * 0.85 / m * a

    determines up to which speed we can accelerate at the physical limit with given mass and power. That is:

    146,000W * 0.85 / 4070kg*m/s² = 30.5m/s = 110kph = 69mph

    That's an absolutely normal and accepted speed all over the world.

    Now let's get us a bit more real numbers and talk about a grown up man of say 85kg with gear of about 10kg and 5kg of what he needs for the day trip on the pillion seat on an ABS equipped S1000RR who want's the opportunity to occassionally go at full acceleration up to 140kph = 87,5mph = 38.9m/s. I use this speed because it's mostly socially accepted to shortly go as fast as that on normal roads for a short time especially while overtaking and because above that being caught would result in a suspended driving licence for a month around here. That makes:

    (204kg + 85kg + 10kg + 5kg) * 10m/s² * 38.9m/s / 0.85 = 139,000W

    As you see, 200hp on a sportbike is pretty close to being optimally fitting public road regulations, and for the heavier hypberbikes and sport-tourers there could even be a bit more power.
    All of course only if you don't take the German Autobahn into account.


    Too many guys only think about top speeds while power is primarily made for acceleration.
    #77
  18. 81forest

    81forest ADDRider

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    I'm sorry I kind of dozed off, there. Anyway, what were you saying:scratch
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  19. JohnCW

    JohnCW Long timer

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    I think he calculated you need at least 200 hp to be able to do 69 mph.
    #79
  20. Wraith Rider

    Wraith Rider Banned

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    You shouldn't try to think. Doesn't work up to now.
    #80