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Zero Motorcycles

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by T.S.Zarathustra, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. ChopperCopper

    ChopperCopper Been here awhile

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    I was there all weekend for the One Moto Show and races. My friend Fred Lux from Lux Performance Group out of Cornelius,Oregon had his electric board track bike entered in the show. There were a lot of really cool looking bikes at the show and it included several electric bikes from Zero, Cake, and others. The races were interesting and the electric bikes were cool but, yes, the track was way too short and rutted out. It was still fun nonetheless! The quiet of the E-Bikes was really eerie! They clearly made a ton of power and it would be great to see them stretch their legs on a longer track. They had a bunch of classes for gas bikes and racing was fun to watch. If you get a chance to go next year I would recommend it. It was the first year at the Veterans Coliseum and I think a lot will be learned from this years event.
  2. woodsrider-boyd

    woodsrider-boyd Wow, these guys are fast

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    Anybody know if Zero has any plans for a full sized, full on e-dirt bike along the lines of the Alta MXR? Or the Alta EXR (street legal version of the MXR)?
    phreakingeek and Neil E. like this.
  3. woodsrider-boyd

    woodsrider-boyd Wow, these guys are fast

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    If anyone is interested, I emailed Zero and this is their response. Too bad, I think they'd sell every e-dirt bike they could produce if it was close to, or better then the Alta performance wise. I guess they don't see the profit potential with one.

    Hey Ed

    No plans in the works currently for a pure dirt bike.

    We do sell the FX and with a few mods it makes a great trail bike.

    With a single pivot aluminum swing arm the FX is not great for jumping.

    If you are cruising the trials and not racing the FX is a great bike


    Regards

    Zero
  4. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    Given how Alta ended up, can you blame them?
  5. woodsrider-boyd

    woodsrider-boyd Wow, these guys are fast

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    Just because Alta went belly up doesn't mean building and selling full sized e-dirt bikes is not viable. And no, of course I don't blame them for anything, but it sure would be nice if a mfr would pick up where Alta left off. Alta sold pretty much every e-dirt bike they produced, I think that would be the case with any comparable e-dirt bike bought to market now. My inquiry to them hopefully helps show them that there is interest out there, but I'm guessing the profit margins are larger for street bikes then pure dirt bikes, so they're following the money which makes sense.
  6. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    Well, it doesn't necessarily mean it, but it strongly indicates it. Personally, it seems like the future of e-dirt bikes lies more in the direction of "almost bicycle" like Sur Ron, rather than traditional dirt bikes which are unnecessarily heavy for what is asked of them.
  7. woodsrider-boyd

    woodsrider-boyd Wow, these guys are fast

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    Sounds like you're describing the current state of "almost bicycles" like the Sur Ron and Altas. Going forward, the weight will go down, the battery tech will improve, the prices will continue to come down, etc.

    "Almost bicycles" have their place, but they do not, nor will they ever, offer what full sized dirt bikes do. It's only a matter of time before the majors start offering full sized e-dirt bikes that are lighter, have greater range, are less costly, etc. Real question is how long will we have to wait for them. Meanwhile us lucky Alta owners are gripping and ripping, so much fun.
    Stretch67 and Neil E. like this.
  8. bradrh

    bradrh Been here awhile

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    What can an e dirt bike do that a sur Ron can't?
  9. woodsrider-boyd

    woodsrider-boyd Wow, these guys are fast

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    You really don't see, or know? Do I really have to type it all out?

    And not trying to be a dick and not trying to put down Sur Ron's, I think they are great. They are just not full sized dirt bikes. Along the same lines as the KTM Freeride E-XC is not a full sized e-dirt bike, although it is close.
  10. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    The force required to start, stop, and turn a body is directly proportional to its mass. That is one of Newton's Laws of Motion. A lighter bike will be more maneuverable, nimbler, and less tiring to the rider because the forces needed to accelerate it, decelerate it, and turn it will be lower. I've never heard anyone at the end of a vigorous off-road ride say "I really wish my bike was heavier."
    liberpolly likes this.
  11. woodsrider-boyd

    woodsrider-boyd Wow, these guys are fast

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    Is this in reference to a Sur Ron vs full sized dirt bike comparison?

    If so, no doubt, all other things being equal, a lighter bike will be all the things you describe.

    All other things are not equal though.

    If you’re referring to a Sur Ron X vs a full sized dirt bike like an Alta or a KTM 350, I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say I wish my bike was “a 50cc Honda killer and competitive with 110cc.” bikes (direct quote from Luna Cycles website: https://lunacycle.com/sur-ron-x-bike-black-edition/) at the end of a vigorous off road ride, Lol.

    Alta MXR, ~50 hp, 70+ mph top speed, top quality suspension and components, etc.

    KTM 350 XC-F, ~58 hp, 70+ top speed, top quality suspension and components, etc.

    The Sur Ron, not so much.

    And again, I think the Sur Ron’s are great, they have their place. They don’t compare to typical full sized dirt bikes though. They’re also physically smaller which is another whole can of worms.

    And what all this has to do with Zero producing a full on dirt bike I don’t know, but it’s...interesting?
  12. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    But my contention was that very few people will choose a full-sized dirt e-bike over Sur Ron. The vast majority won't. There will be full-size dual sports, and ultralight dirt e-bikes, but not full-sized dirt e-bikes. I don't have any data to prove it, though.
  13. wheresbaoskee

    wheresbaoskee Perpendicular to Everything

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    Closest electric to that at the moment is probably some variant of the Tacita Race. The "T-Race Cross" is the lighter of the dirt versions, and either motor option (44/55kw) should be roughly in that equivalent hp ballpark.

    http://www.tacita.it/2019/trace-cross/

    The "Enduro" model maxes out with a 34kw engine (less power than your benchmark), and is probably heavier with bigger battery capacity than the cross. It also looks like it has lights and a plate hangar, so would be comparable to a smaller dual-sport than a performance dirt bike.

    Estimated Range and Charge times are at the very bottom of their Way Too Hard To Read Website. I don't see weights or seat heights, but safe bet that either is heavier than the KTM.

    It will be interesting to see what improvements Tacita can develop if they are able to make good on their racing plans through 2023.

    http://www.tacita.it/2019/dakar/

    That said, I think weight has a lot to do with it. The Zero FX/FXS aren't available with the larger (14.4?) battery option available on their other bikes. The larger Tacita battery is 9kwh and doubled on the Rally version by mounting "pannier" batteries. It takes a lot of space to get to 18kwh currently, and the T-Race Rally shows that.

    The "Borderline" bikes (Sur-Run, Kuberg, Ubco FX-1) have lightweight enough powertrains that they can basically get away with being extremely robust mountain bikes - a sort of hybrid space that will work for a lot of people. But you're right, the crowd that is already riding bikes in the 350-450 "performance" space are going to want a bike that offers similar performance.

    Which, right now, means a great deal of weight and cost. Which will come down. The Borderline bikes will get faster and correspondingly more robust, while efforts like Tacita will find ways to add lightness to their purpose built "Big Dirt Bikes."

    Whoever figures out the sweet spot between will have quite a vehicle to offer.
  14. Ditch

    Ditch Long timer

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    Honda has been testing the CR-E for a bit now. With their dealer network it should be pretty easy to move to the public when they decide the market is worth it.
  15. woodsrider-boyd

    woodsrider-boyd Wow, these guys are fast

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    Very few people will choose a full sized e-dirt bike over a Sur Ron? Seriously?

    People can make that choice now and I don't see a wave of motocross and off-road dirt bike people ditching their full sized dirt bikes and purchasing Sur Rons. Additionally, Sur Ron will be selling their new full sized e-dirt bike, the Storm Bee (or Boom Bee?), this spring. Honda has shown their prototype e-dirt bike (looks killer), KTM is one step away from having a full sized e-dirt bike. Yamaha has a full sized trials bike prototype, etc. Seems like the mfrs don't agree with your thinking.

    What's the appeal of the Sur Ron to people who currently ride full sized dirt bikes? Way less performance? Way less robust? No factory warranty support? No factory parts support? Way less aftermarket support? Smaller frame size? I will give you the Sur Ron has its place. Low cost, light weight, that's about all of the advantages of a Sur Ron that I can think of off the top of my head. But you could make the same argument for a TTR 110, its way less expensive, way lighter, but can't do what a full sized dirt bike can do, so they're not replacing full sized dirt bikes.

    A more likely scenario IMO is that there will be all kinds of offerings and full sized e-dirt bikes will be a major part of that equation as the battery tech keeps improving, costs are lowered, weight drops, range increases, charge times reduced, etc.

    What makes you think that there won't be full sized e-dirt bikes and only ultralight dirt e-bikes in the future? Especially as full sized e-dirt bikes get lighter?
    Stretch67 and Neil E. like this.
  16. longslowdistance

    longslowdistance Long timer Supporter

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    woodsrider-boyd likes this.
  17. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    I think light weight is the overwhelming advantage. I don’t own one yet, though.
  18. woodsrider-boyd

    woodsrider-boyd Wow, these guys are fast

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    But the performance of a Sur Ron X is not comparable to a full sized dirt bike, its not even close.

    There's a reason full sized dirt bikes weigh as much as they do, its not like the mfr's are adding weight for the heck of it. If you want a 30 - 50+ hp off road or motocross bike, you need a beefy frame, suspension, wheels, etc, to handle it, which adds weight.

    And don't get me wrong, I'm all for lighter dirt bikes (owned numerous 125 2 strokes), I just don't see little 8 hp Sur Ron X's replacing full sized dirt bikes, ever.

    If you're happy with the 8 hp and lighter weight from a Sur Ron X, that's cool, just don't see anything to back up your prediction of full sized dirt bikes being replaced by ultralight e-bikes. As I mentioned earlier, I think we will have both, and everything in between, which will be great, more choices on how to have fun out on the trails and tracks.
    Neil E. likes this.
  19. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    liberpolly likes this.
  20. woodsrider-boyd

    woodsrider-boyd Wow, these guys are fast

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    Nice try.

    I’ve seen that. Too bad the vid title is completely misleading. The dude did not “win a hare scramble”, he won his class in a hare scramble. Big difference.

    And what class was he in? How many other riders were in his class? How long were the laps?

    My team won our class at the Starvation Ridge 24 Hrs years ago. I don’t go around telling people we won the Starvation Ridge 24 Hr.

    You seem to have a hard on for Sur Ron X’s, that’s great. I think they are great too, all 8 hp of them.

    You want to impress people about the Sur Ron? Post up the vids of the guys in Hawaii riding them in the gnar, they love them.

    Let me know if you need the links.

    And let me repeat myself, I think the Sur Ron’s are great.