G650X Country Stalls Over-N-Over When Cold

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by SeaMoto, Jul 9, 2009.

  1. ridin gaijin

    ridin gaijin riding > posting

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    Yeah, I need to do #1. I already have done #s 2, 3 and 4.

    I do wonder about the correlation between colder weather and dirty idle actuator--it doesn't seem intuitive. Well, after this weekend we'll see!
    #21
  2. ridin gaijin

    ridin gaijin riding > posting

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    Update--the idle air controller and throttle body were clean as a whistle--as expected, this bike has never been off road. Carb cleaned it all anyway, put it back together, fired it up. It stalled within a minute. Fired it up again, it stalled inside 30 seconds.

    LAME
    #22
  3. Geoffster

    Geoffster Fool - Born This Way

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    #23
  4. plumber mike

    plumber mike Highdive Deepened

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    I am wondering how many of you still have your sidestand safety switch still installed. It sadly determines if your bike will start or not. I'm not saying it's your problem, but it can make it hard to diagnose another problem if it is intermittently acting up. I have 12K on my 09Xco. I had expierienced these stalling issues at about 1500 miles, and also had it feel like the bike was cutting out on bumpy roads. I did away with the switch and have never had a starting/running issue since. I take that back. My stock exhaust also clogged causing poor performance due to excessive backpressure. It may be worth bypassing the sidestand switch just to see.

    The more parts I replace with non BMW/Aprilla parts, the better my bike gets. SAD!

    Good luck everyone! I'd say we are on our own as BMW seems less than willing to help. I think the warranty is useless, as I don't want you to replace my failed part with another part from your new/old stock that will fail again.
    #24
  5. ridin gaijin

    ridin gaijin riding > posting

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    Hey Geoffster. Thanks, yes, I tried that before going the carb cleaner route (hoping to not buy any carb cleaner, heh). Mike, I do have the sidestand safety still installed. The problem isn't that the bike won't start. It also dies while on the sidestand trying to warm up. Your solution is logical and sensible for you, but since I don't ride this bike off-road, I don't see the same kind of issue you did. Plus, it's happening now that the weather is colder, not with any change in riding habit, which might otherwise point me in your direction.

    I'm reluctant to change the battery but can certainly see why it might make sense. Although, I've had bikes with electrical system faults before (I spent many an hour addressing my Tiger's) and haven't seen a weak battery produce a strong start but an occasional stall when under power.

    ...Next step: I'm genuinely curious why BMW would let this sorry state of affairs persist. Sent to Customer Service:

    #25
  6. XFrog

    XFrog Adventurer

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    Guys, this subject has been run into the gound on the "Show us your X Country" thread. At the risk of:dhorse I will repost what I compiled in the other thread. I had this problem and I searched the Web over top-to-bottom and fixed my bike, here are the recommended steps.


    In agreement with what others have said, this is not 'normal' and is repairable. That said, it is not entirely uncommon either, mine did this exact same thing when I bought it used. I was able to fix mine and it starts, idles and runs as smooth as can be now. All the information you need to fix this problem is out there in this thread and/or the web but it does take some sifting thru and there is some mis-information out there. I would do the following steps in this order. Details on how to do these things can be found elsewhere. I did not do the things in green to my bike but I have heard they may help, I am doing the plugs and air cleaner the next time I do a full service but my standard components are working great.
    • Clean the throttle body and pay particular attention to the idle actuator mechanism which gets gummed up.
    • Vent your crankcase breather to atmosphere, instead of back into the airbox, and it will keep it from getting gummed up again.
    • Reset throttle position sensor & idle actuator positioning. I think these two are the exact same procedure done by turning the key and holding the throttle in a certain position. You can actually hear the idle actuator move and calibrate itself.
    • Run a can of your favorite fuel injector cleaner thru the bike. I use Lucas.
    • Switch to better gas...super unleaded at lower elevations. I use unleaded plus with good success at >5000' elevation.
    • Perform a canisterectomy.
    • Check for a kinked fuel lines between xtank and main, vent tubes, etc.
    • By-pass side-stand safety switch.
    • Install new Uni foam air fliter.
    • Installing a Booster Plug, or placing a 10K Ohm resistor between the air temperature sensor and the "controller", has worked on many bikes to promote stable idling by making the air/fuel mixture richer.
    • Install an Odyssey PC310 battery and put a battery tender on it occasionally to keep it at optimum performance.
    • Remove "tip over valve" assembly -- see next post for details.
    • Frayed speed sensor wire/pulse generator (same thing).
    • Faulty engine coolant temperature sensor in radiator. (worked for one inmate).
    • Install new iridium tip spark plugs.
    • Install a Leo Vince exhaust pipe.
    • A problem with your ECU or software? See BMW dealer and have them pull fault codes.
    I think the issue is a combination of things as the problem got less-and-less with each step I performed. The more I read about the issue, and based on my own experience, I think the "canisterectomy" is one of the most effective fixes! I kind of have them listed in order of cost too, start with the easy stuff first as different people's bikes have responded to different fixes for this issue. Give it some time after making all the changes as the ECU seemed to adapt and it ran better after a few rides.

    The stalling issue was a complete and utter annoyance to me and I spent a lot of time working on this. Please don't put it off, the bike is SO MUCH more fun when it runs right! I think it is even dangerous as I had it stall as I was pulling out into traffic and it scared the hell out of me. :eek1

    Xfrog
    #26
  7. XFrog

    XFrog Adventurer

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    Moving to the G650X Stalling Thread for reference...

    -XFrog

    Originally Posted by donnh [​IMG]
    I'm posting this for the record in case anyone is searching for information on this topic. My Xc had the same cold stalling issue everyone here has discussed. I never had time to look into it and decided I would probably just live with it. Then as part of the aux tank install I removed the vent assembly from the main tank and removed the parts that have been described as the tip over valve. Ever since then the stalling problem has gone away.

    Assembly with the insides removed
    [​IMG]

    The parts just snap out and can be saved and re-installed later if needed. I really have no idea why this helped but it did.:eek1 Hope this helps someone.
    #27
  8. cpuover

    cpuover n00b

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    Greetings from Oregon!

    First I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed info and suggestions on these stalling problems. I took a moto class and got my license 4 years ago, but just recently bought an Xco as my first bike. I love the bike, hate the closed-source nature of servicing it. I've printed out this thread and others (it has been such a help having pictures to reference) and am on my own personal quest to defeat my G650X's cold-engine stalling issue.

    I'll post my own observations here along the way. Hopefully it will help someone else down the line.

    My Xco currently starts up and immediately stalls (1-3 seconds) when cold. The weather is colder now than it was early last month when I bought the bike- back then it would run for 10-20 seconds before stalling. I can either opt to continue starting it many times, or I can apply the throttle for about a minute to get it past the point of stalling. When I use the throttle, after a second or two the RPMs start decreasing and at this point I know the bike is about to stall. I increase the throttle to prevent the stalling, and after a few seconds the bike "catches on" / "pops the fuel bubble" / WTF is happening, and the RPMs skyrocket as the engine actually gets the oomph I've been applying from the throttle. My neighbors probably think I'm being an ass, when in reality I just want to start my bike. Now that the bike is running, if I turn it off and go to start it again it will usually exhibit the same behavior. The engine needs to be very warm for it to start right up and stay running.

    The first thing I did was to clean the throttle body and idle actuator without removing them. In hindsight this was a pointless step, as not much additional work is required to just pop out the whole throttle body and give it a good deep cleaning.

    Next (still stalling, no difference) I went down to NAPA and picked up one can each of Seafoam and Lucas fuel injector cleaner. I'm running the last of the Seafoam through the tank now. A tank or two later I'll add the Lucas. Hilariously, after half the Seafoam treatment, the stalling happens sooner after ignition. It could be the colder weather or that the treatment has knocked residue elsewhere but somewhere there's a BMW engineer laughing at me for not having a $6k computer and a way to communicate with the onboard computer as this could be completely unrelated.

    I followed instructions to remove the throttle body and cleaned it out along with the idle actuator. This bike has been used on the dirt by previous owners so these components were pretty filthy. I used carb cleaner and Q-tips to get it nice and clean and then reinstalled everything. In the process I also cleaned off the injector which was filthy as well.

    This made no difference, so I decided to change out the spark plugs with new NGK DR8EB 's. NAPA didn't have them, but Amazon does. I didn't have a thin-walled 18mm socket (though I will soon) so I had to remove the rocker cover (after removing throttle bracket) to gain access to them, and although this was easier than it looked, I was very cautious about dirt/grime falling into the engine from around the edge. I used compressed air and shop cloths to ease my mind. With the rocker cover hanging off to the side, I used compressed air again to spray filth out from the spark plug recesses. Oh, one thing to add, the plug wires are a pain in the ass to remove unless you have BMW's official tool (OEM 90886123561 [1] [2]). The old plugs came out easy, the wires are the trickiest part. Sadly the new plugs didn't make a difference in the stalling department. I didn't think they would, but for $8 for new plugs I figured it was a safe bet.

    Most recently my focus has shifted to the engine coolant temperature sensor (OEM 13621703993). I got out my multimeter and measured the resistance between the top two pins (the only two in use when connected) when cold and after running the engine. I need to read it again to make sure. Cold, I read 3.92 K, and warm, 0.17 K. (The resistance increases as the temperature gets cooler.) I also measured 1.9 K to the ECU from the ECT plug. I need to take another set of readings before deciding on whether or not to buy a new sensor for $20 (more like $35 shipped) but it makes sense that this could be the culprit. Interestingly, I started up the bike with the ECT disconnected and it seemed like it was going to run perfectly- it didn't stall for about 20 seconds.

    Last week I broke down and decided to buy a GS-911 to talk to my onboard computer, only to find out this week it's out of stock for another week or so. Being that the riding season is almost over, I cancelled my order. Figure I'll have plenty of time to tinker with it while the snow is falling. It would be great to find or borrow a used GS-911, but confidence is low.

    On a positive note, last night marked my first night riding session AND my first ride into town. Had to get that ballot dropped off somehow! :deal

    Again, thanks everyone for posting what has/hasn't worked for you. I'll try to keep this updated to fight the good fight. I love this bike but can't accept the cold stalling as if it's a design feature. I'd rather save the stalling occasions for being in third gear at a stoplight, as I did last night.
    #28
  9. motoreiter

    motoreiter Long timer

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    I also have this problem, but have noticed that it seems like when the battery is freshly charged, above about 13, it runs great. I have a short commute (10 min) and moreoever the bike sometimes sits for a week or more at a time, and I think this tends to run down the battery, and the stalling becomes progressively worse at the battery drops below 13. It is easy to track this by showing battery strength on the dashboard.
    #29
  10. cpuover

    cpuover n00b

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    I've noticed increase stalling when the battery isn't topped off as well, but even with the BMW charger on it solid green (full charge) the stalls are still present with a cold engine.

    Last night I performed the canisterectomy (following the excellent guides by Flo_Evans and kres). Used a vacuum cap ($8, set of 16) and a 3/8" fuel line coupler ($5, set of two). Getting the coupler all the way into the hoses was a pain, but putting a thin layer of new motor oil on it made it a slightly easier job. The vacuum line I was already familiar with after spending so much time around the throttle body. Used one of the clamps from the now-discarded "big hose" to hold the cap on it.

    Started it up and it ran for a good 30 seconds before the stall. It hadn't been started for two days and was on charge for that full duration, so I consider this an improvement. The bike was also running with noticeably more power.

    Next I'll be changing out my coolant ($78, case of 4 Engine Ice 1/2 gal.) and coolant temperature sensor ($20 shipped). I suspect this bike hasn't ever had its coolant changed (nothing in docs/service receipts) in the past 3 years, so it's a worthwhile endeavor, especially since some of the coolant has to be removed to cleanly take out the sensor. Also, I confirmed a resistance on the currently-installed sensor on a very cold bike, when the new sensor is reads OL/no resistance. So I'm hoping it is in fact a bad sensor here.

    I don't like throwing money at the bike, but it's turned out to be quite a learning experience, and my DIY service manual (courtesy of you all) seems to grow by the week. Which is good thing, not just because it may add to the perceived value when I eventually sell it, but also because the knockoff workshop service DVD I bought on ebay from Canada has evidently been lost in the mail.
    #30
  11. cpuover

    cpuover n00b

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    I switched out the coolant and coolant sensor last weekend. The immediate cold-start stalls are history!

    I also decided to pull the trigger on a GS-911, and here's what it read today:
    Code:
    #2012-11-24 16:07:25 
    #GS-911 Android V1.1 
    #G650 Xcountry 
    4433: Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor Malfunction, Short-circuit to Positive or Open-circuit. The fault is not present now. 
    17460: Tank ventilation valve, Open-circuit or output-stage overloaded. The fault is currently present.
    I suspect 4433 would've been triggered by starting the bike with sensor disconnected, and not just if the sensor is bad. I regret not having a dealer pull the codes before I began tinkering. The other fault (17460) showing is due to the canister laying on the garage floor, I just need to short the disconnected plug I think.

    Reading the real-time values using the GS-911, I'm seeing huge fluctuations from the lambda sensor, and maybe this sensor is malfunctioning. The bike doesn't run perfectly smooth, it kind of struggles, then catches up, then struggles. I need to do some more research and ride some more and see what I can come up with.
    #31
  12. khpossum

    khpossum poster

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    another success story. First took off the carbon canister, since it was the easiest. Did maybe make some differnce, hard to say. I then changed the temperature sensor and the problems are 99% gone. Measuring the resistance it was hard to say there was anything wrong with the old one, but no more cold engine stalling.

    KP
    #32
  13. snooker

    snooker AttitudeIsEverything

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    My cold stalling has gotten worse lately. And this is after cleaning the idle actuator and about a month into a new Odyssey battery. The weather is warmer now too and it is happening more, only when engine is warming up. When I start it from cold I never let the engine warm up I just take off immediately and ride gently and it will stall at a stop sign right away. Sometimes.

    I've got 20k on it and have not checked the valves yet. It starts fine. So don't know if that is related. But I want to check out this coolant temperature sensor when I can.

    So anybody in Colorado have a GS 911 that I can swing by your house and pay you to hook up for a reading? :deal
    #33
  14. khpossum

    khpossum poster

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    I feel your pain. I would replace the sensor regardless. I could not find anything wrong with anything, but when I replaced the sensor and cleaned the idle actuator everything was A-OK. The sensor is not very expensive, so why fight it. Post 26 has of course other things to look at,

    Good luck, KP
    #34
  15. snooker

    snooker AttitudeIsEverything

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    Apparently this same sensor number 13 62 1 703 993 is used in BMW cars as well. I just ordered the MTC temperature switch that was under $20 so probably a cheaper aftermarket one vs. the $40 OEM one. (Last one in stock).

    My plan was to simply use it to learn how to read the resistance between terminals on it without installing it into the bike even. Like heat it up in hot water or something and see which pins change resistance between them. Then if the one in the bike seems to compare ok then I probably won't bother replacing it. Of course it could be intermittent.

    DO you have any information on how to pull off the connector and measure ohms across combinations of the 4 pins? I haven't tried yet, maybe it is obvious.

    I've also collected a lot of other info on this topic at my G650X web page, just search for "cold stalling".
    #35
  16. khpossum

    khpossum poster

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    I found the connections somewhere on the internet, but can't find that info anymore. You should be able to figure it out with an ohm meter, although it a pain to get your leads into the sensor connector. The link you showed is for a switch. BMW is confused in what they call it. It is not a switch but thermistor / RTD or something like that. I do have a PDF with the temperature - resistance curve that I believe applies this thing. Make sure you don't buy a switch and that has the 4 connection plug, nit the usual 2 connections. All: IIRC
    #36
  17. tommyvdv

    tommyvdv Been here awhile

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    ever solve this?
    #37
  18. snooker

    snooker AttitudeIsEverything

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    Yes the BMW fiche under 17 Cooling on diagram 17_0429 - RADIATOR HOSES/TEMPERATURE SENSOR ....
    calls item 11 a Double Temperature Switch I too was confused if it was the same thing, so lets call it a thermistor actually...

    <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="width: 17px; border-bottom: solid 1px #666;" align="center">11</td><td style="width: 85px; border-left: solid 1px #ddd; border-bottom: solid 1px #666; font-weight: bold;" align="left"> 13 62 1 703 993</td><td style="width: 235px; border-left: solid 1px #ddd; border-bottom: solid 1px #666; font-family: Arial Narrow;" align="left"> DOUBLE TEMPERATURE SWITCH</td><td style="width: 30px; border-left: solid 1px #ddd; border-bottom: solid 1px #666;" align="right">0.07 </td><td style="width: 35px; border-left: solid 1px #ddd; border-bottom: solid 1px #666;" align="right">1 </td><td style="border-left: solid 1px #ddd; border-bottom: solid 1px #666; width: 100px;" align="right">$38.75</td></tr></tbody></table>
    [​IMG]


    The part I got from Amazon to experiment with, was packaged in a bag marked Vollig but the part itself has no markings on it like the OEM one does.

    When you pull the connector on the bike off of the sensor, it looks like there are tabs to pry up but DO NOT pry anyting! Just wiggle the black connector and pull straight out and and there is a waterproof O-ring seal on the connector that makes it stay snugly attached.

    Anyhow when you pull the connector off, there are only 2 pins in the wiring harness that are used, pins 3 and 4. So you measure between pins 3 and 4 on the thermistor in the engine block.

    UPDATED:
    Now to actual measurements. (All made at 80 to 90 degrees F, ambient air temperature):

    For different engine temperature situations:
    1. 2280 Ohms - Cold engine.
    2. 510 Ohms - Bike was hot then sat for 2 hours, then ridden 5 minutes.
    3. 250 Ohms - Bike was cold then ridden 15 minutes.

    The replacement "Vollig" part sitting loose on the bench says 1860 Ohms.

    If anybody else would post any measurements (kOhms) it would be helpful, especially those of a BAD sensor, where replacing it fixed your cold stalling. :deal
    #38
  19. khpossum

    khpossum poster

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    This is what I found sometime, somewhere. It seems this table correlates with your measurement.

    [​IMG]

    Same table enlarged, please note table is in Celsius:

    [​IMG]

    It would be interesting to correlate at various temps to make really sure this table is valid

    KP
    #39
  20. snooker

    snooker AttitudeIsEverything

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    That is very helpful. I have not searched for such a table for our exact sensor / thermistor.

    Just as a reminder ours has 4 terminals (though only 2 appear to be used (unless somehow the ground / chassis frame is used as a reference?).. so this is not exactly the same sensor we have. I assume you were just using this chart as an example.

    One more data point: After a 20 minute summer ride mine measured 0.51 kOhms.
    #40