Tuneboy for 990?

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by cyborg, Apr 5, 2008.

  1. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    I'm glad to see it. I really thought they were going to give us crap on this.
    Changing my front tire then I'll be riding today. Will do a milage check before I send my map to you. So far I've looked at all the maps that KTM has and pcIII. The Tune boy maps are a different format I think. Doesn't sound right since they say we can use pcIII maps. Might just be cause my bike wouldn't communicate. My current map would probably be a bit rich for your bike to be optimum. But, it will be a hell of a lot better than what is out there.

    Thanks for all your patience. Here's to getting you a 50+mpg Adventure:evil .
    #61
  2. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    That's the target! :thumb
    #62
  3. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    Now that the TuneEdit software is Authenticated and communicating with the ECU I did more reading up in the TuneEdit docs and was a bit dissapointed to find that TuneEdit cannot look at the existing tune on the KTM Keihin or backup the existing tune (only on some Sagems can it do this).

    I know that a few months after I got my 2007 990 Adventure my KTM dealer loaded a "new improved" tune over my original tune I got when I bought the bike new. Anybody know what that new tune is named?

    The new KTM tune did seem to smooth out the low throttle jerkiness on the bike, so I was hoping not to overwrite this new tune with the old one again if that's what the Tuneboy version is (??) I asked Wayne this question and will let you know what he says. It seems the Keihin only supports a write-only mode, not even a read mode, at least with Tuneboy.

    I can see why you would want to use TuneEdit with a dyno to evaluate on the spot what the map changes are doing. Tahoeacr can do this as he rides since his bike is instrumented like a "rolling dyno" :thumb

    So, I can only twiddle with external tune files and load tunes and try them out seat of the pants and mileage tests, but that's good enough for me for now, since dyno time is not in my budget right now. I'll await the new tunes Tahoeacr comes up with in his static and on-road dyno testing. :deal


    UPDATE: Wayne answered my question on current tune versions:


    "The tune I emailed you is exactly the same as you have in the bike.
    KM601US0704501

    KM601 is the project code for the map.
    US is the region code
    0704 is the ECU program version.
    501 is the map calibration version.

    This is what you have in the bike.
    If you have the latest version of TuneEdit it will check the ECU program version and if it is a match to the one in the bike it only downloads the calibration info, this is how the downloads are faster with the latest version of TuneEdit."


    Good info :thumb
    #63
  4. Michhub

    Michhub Major Medical

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    Any more updates....:lurk ???
    #64
  5. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    Cyborg is on vacation. I sent him some maps to try. Found a new option with Tuneboy that would make it real easy to tune but I don't know if it's available for KTM's. Have to wait til he gets back.
    #65
  6. Michhub

    Michhub Major Medical

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    Is there any hope for Tuneboy...I get 35mpg with the KTM Akra map...????
    #66
  7. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    I'm back. The cable has bounced back to Tahoeacr and he's going to try some new things.

    I loaded the Tuneboy Akra map with Tahoeacr's dyno-created leaner Power Commander overlays (yes, you can do that, it adds subtle adjustments to the base map) and I also loaded the standard Tuneboy US base map with PCIII 'lean' overlays and ran several tanks with each. Best I've been able to get was 39mpg so far, nowhere near the mythical 50mpg claimed by some.

    The biggest problem I see with the Tuneboy or maybe it's the ECU's fault, but you can't retrieve/download to your PC the existing ECU map to have a look at what the bike is trying to use. I'd love to see the map the 50mpg guys are running on...

    All you can do is make adjustments to the map on a PC and blindly load new maps onto the ECU and do a dyno run or seat-of the pants run, mpg tests, etc.

    My worry is we can load maps on the KTM990's all day long, but if the ECU has faulty sensors it may be constantly resetting the ECU to a default (35mpg) rich map and overriding whatever we load on. Problem is I don't think anyone here knows the flowchart of how this ECU works or is programmed to work, so we're in the dark.

    My pipe shows black soot on the FMF end caps, I know it running too rich, but what can I do? The local dealers have no idea how to tune these bikes, just load whatever maps KTM corporate gives them.

    I wish the KTM's used Sagem EFI which has a far superior interface and accessibility, where you can look at maps right on the ECU, watch parameters while running and adjust fuel/air ratios right in the Tuneboy software, what Tahoeacr was alluding to as a new way to tune. The KTM990 version of the Tuneboy software doesn't have that feature which probably means the existing ECU doesn't allow that, bummer.

    That's all I know/speculate right now, ball's in Tahoacr's court, go Jeff!
    #67
  8. Michhub

    Michhub Major Medical

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    Sigh....you guys are doing what many others only dream of....including me.
    I spent countless dollars on farkles but can only dream of better mileage.
    There has to be a way.....cheers to Tahoeacr & Cyborg for pioneering the effort :clap
    #68
  9. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    So today I went back to the original map that I sent Cyborg just to check my progress. I went 164 miles of which about 10 were fire roads. Got 40mpg. The map I had been working on was the same one that I have just been fine tuning. It got 45 out of it. I just gave up on the power commander III cause it can't get the job done for fuel economy.

    Cyborg, as far as the odometer set at 19 here's what I got. 4 actual miles showed 3.8 on the bike. I will probably go back to the 21 setting.
    #69
  10. Krust

    Krust Adventurer

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    Here is a link to the patent that KEIHIN filed regarding Air/Fuel Control. It has a flowchart showing their control mechanisms.

    https://publications.european-patent-office.org/PublicationServer/getpdf.jsp?cc=EP&pn=1630389&ki=A1

    I looked at the Tuneedit software as well, and was a little disappointed in the amount of support it offered for the KTM. The maps are pretty poorly labeled, and there is no information on what the values in the maps actually represent. I'm not a big fan of blindly tweaking values in some map that appears to be fueling related. Looks like they have the Sagem stuff for the Triumph pretty dialed though. What I did find though was that relative to the stock map (at least the stock map that he has available for download)the Akra map blanketly adds 5% to the fueling throughout the entire map with even larger increases (up to 18%) in the most commonly used range (4000-8000 rpm and 20% to 100% throttle). It's no wonder it gets such poor gas mileage with that map. It makes me wonder what duty cycle the stock injector is running at if that much fuel can be added. Although looking at the map at the redline RPM's shows the fuel additions to be only 5% which hopefully the FI has that much headroom built in. Perhaps we should start a thread dedicated to the FI system on the 990 so we can begin compiling all of the known information?

    I've been doing some research into possibly using some the free tools that the car tuning community has developed to look at the 990 ECU. Just got my bike last weekend, so haven't made it very far. I have a bunch of mechanical stuff I need to do first (this bike needs to go on a diet!)
    #70
  11. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    I've looked at the duty cycle on the dyno but can't remember exactly what it was. I do remember that it was really low. I don't think I saw it go over 50%.
    You are exactly right on the akra map. KTM is full of crap when they say you have to have it if you change your cans. That statement is the whole reason I went on this journey. I've had a Innovate wide-band on my bike since it was stock. No maps available from KTM keep the A/F in open loop at 14.7. They have all gone richer. My original map on the bike kept it there and I got that miracle 52-54 mpg. Plus it ran high 11's at WOT. Akra would run low 12's all the time. My PCIII maps that are based off of the Akra run 13.0 at WOT and I'm trying to get them to stay at 14.7 in open loop. Their really isn't an open loop since there are no 0-2 sensors. I'm just trying to run it at less than 20% throttle and with no Lambdas the a/f wanders too much.

    Welcome to the crush.
    #71
  12. Krust

    Krust Adventurer

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    How did you measure duty cycle on the injectors? 50% DC at WOT and high RPM would be ridiculous. If that is correct it could be a partial explanation at why the throttle is so touchy at lower rpm. An injector that big would need extremely small on times in low airflow situations. Something an 8-bit digital controller might not have enough resolution to provide with much fidelity (i.e you either get 5ms of squirt or 10ms of squirt... if you have a large injector than can be too large a change in fuel for low airflow situations).

    P.S. Don't you mean closed loop instead of open loop. Open loop ignores the sensors and runs a set injector on time for a give TP and RPM. Closed loop uses the sensors to adjust to a desired A/F ratio.
    #72
  13. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    Your right, I mean closed loop. The PCIII when hooked up to a laptop reads duty cycle of both injectors. I might be going to the dyno Thursday so I'll check it again. I know it was not even close to 75-80% as I was wondering how much I had left. After the 2-1 exhaust(also have cams and a different airbox) I did the standard map was into the 15's at closed loop and 13.6 open loop.
    #73
  14. 1911fan

    1911fan Master of the Obvious

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    Ooohh!!! Oohhh!!!! I want that one!!!


    NCW MIke
    #74
  15. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    That's the Holy Grail :bow

    I keep wondering if I have faulty or intermittent Lambdas and the Keihin ECU falls back into open loop mode and crappy MPG. Every once in awhile my yello "FI" light on the display comes on and takes a key cycle to remove. It also sometimes idles at 1000 or lower when warm and of course there's no idle adjust...and sometime it idles at 1500 where it's supposed to...:becca
    #75
  16. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    The power commander can get the map and save it. We need to find a bike still getting the magical 50+, hook up a pcIII and get/save the map. The only problem is you would have to run a pcIII to use that map.

    Cyborg, what gearing you running right now? When I get the tuneboy map loaded(it came today:clap ) that you are running I want to make sure all things are the same.
    #76
  17. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    I just changed the front sprocket from a 17 to a 16 when I first got the bike. I forget off the top what the OEM rear sprocket is again. A local 990 rider I know gets the magical 50mpg but if installing a PC3 is invasive to wiring and such, he won't want to do it, mostly afraid to lose his magical setting! I don't blame him for that. Maybe he has one of the only good set of lamda sensors...
    #77
  18. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    Thanks for that info Krust and appreciate you working on this project too! :clap
    #78
  19. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    It won't bother his ecm cause the map you download(in which we wouldn't do anyways) stays in the PCIII module as it modifies the signal downstream of his ecm before the injectors.
    I will leave my 16 on to check milage with you before I change anything. The tuneboy software got my serial # so fast this time I had to check it to make sure it wasn't yours stuck in the cable:rofl . E-mail is off. Here's to waiting again.

    Thanks again for all your help and patience.
    #79
  20. 1911fan

    1911fan Master of the Obvious

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    I'm guessing my 25mpg isn't normal then? It seems like it should be at least 10-15mpg higher.
    The bike is an '08 with just under 1K on it, and all bone stock so far. I'm looking at Akras or FMFs, and from reading this and other threads it appears I do not need the Akra map- can I run the stock map?

    O great tune gurus, what are my options?

    NCW Mike
    #80