What to do with a GasGas 280 TXT when parts aren't available??

Discussion in 'Trials' started by Zuber, Jan 18, 2017.

  1. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob

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    Have a nice 280 TXT (not a pro) that is in great shape. BUT, the ignition went out and this Italian ignition is not available. Part it? Put in another engine? Is there another solution?
    #1
  2. heffergm

    heffergm Long timer

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    Have you talked to Jim Snell? He can probably tell you in about 5 seconds what the verdict will be...
    #2
  3. alpineboard

    alpineboard Been here awhile

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    If it is the coils, rewind them. If it is the cdi, you can make a new cdi yourself, it is a simple circuit, test it, then pot it if you want. The info to do this is out there on the internet, Thinking it may be here.

    Would trouble shoot what you have to make sure first.
    #3
  4. laser17

    laser17 Long timer

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    #4
  5. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob

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    Talked to Jim, LewisPort and the new importer.
    Both the bottom and coil are fubar.
    I thought about making it a battery ignition using a points eliminator like a Perlux?, but that's a lot of work.
    #5
  6. heffergm

    heffergm Long timer

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    Meh. I'd just part it out unless you're really attached to it for some reason.
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  7. DerViking

    DerViking Shred

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    Not many trials bikes get parted out, I imagine the parts would go quick. I was lucky enough to get a set of wheels a couple years ago.
    #7
  8. alpineboard

    alpineboard Been here awhile

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    Not sure what you mean by "bottom".
    If you make a circuit diagram of what is connected to what and which direction the wraps are going, you need to duplicate this, as well as the cdi unit. If the coils are not potted, you can unwrap them and count, if not , you going to have to make an educated guess.
    Then you can unwrap and count the # of wraps per coil. When wrapping the new one , do not twist the coil wire as you wrap. This could be tricky, and may take a second person to hold the coil wire spool on a pencil and flip it with each wind rotation.
    They are either being wound in place on the stator , or wound on another implement and slid on the stator. No damage to the coil wire and its insulation can take place. This is pretty tricky stuff and takes plenty of planning, know you have a good plan, and then do it correctly, with a ton of patience.
    Used to wind coils and install on stators of many sizes from 3, 4 , 5 inch down to 1/2" stators(43 gauge coil wire) , and glue the plates together for stators, for Bourdon tube transducers, at a Mom and Pop shop, who had a really good contract with the Navy for decades.
    And for the CDI , it is not a complicated circuit at all, there are plenty of people who make their own and show you how, all over youtube.
    I would assume, that there are plenty of youtubes on " do it yourself coil winding" as well. So you can approach this task with more knowledge and comfort. Just remember that not every one knows what they are doing on youtube. Use a filter. But you can learn something from everyone.
    #8
  9. MT 007

    MT 007 Been here awhile

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    Did you try GG Pacific in Canada they were the Canadian importer and have a pretty good parts inventory.
    #9
  10. motodojo

    motodojo Been here awhile

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    #10
  11. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob

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    The stator is potted and the coil to power the fan went out first, then the coil went out. The coil has the electronics in it and it's potted. This is not the Ducati, it's a rare two year itialian model. There is one Kokuson ignition available, but not the flywheel. Can't see spending about $1000 on an ignition system.

    Edit: it's a Lionelli, sounds eyetalian, but it's Spanish.

    Your tips got me looking for ignition kits. These guys look good>
    http://www.model-engine-ignition.com/home
    No timing advance, but I'm not sure it would matter much for a trials bike.
    #11
  12. Hoss Cartright

    Hoss Cartright Been here awhile

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    The straight skinny -
    Sadly, the constant switching of suppliers for electrical systems leads to what we have today. I have an incredible amount of electrical inventory for GG bikes dating back to 1991. Each system has its weakest point, which is the component that typically will be the first and most likely to fail. Making it the top seller and most required spare part, meaning that it is the first one to become not available..
    Unfortunately, none of the parts interchange among the electrical supplier brands. I have for sure, many thousands of dollars in electrical parts in stock today that I will never sell as they are the parts that "do not fail". Believe me, I have a LOT of electrical parts.
    Can I make a complete system to solve this gentleman's problems? Sadly, I cannot. Second-hand? Nope, those workshop takeoffs are long gone now.

    (You can draw your own conclusions why suppliers were switched so often. Please remember that this was the old company that no longer exists so no responsibility of the new company whatsoever)

    As GG began a cycle of falling upon hard times years ago, and they struggled upon the brink of bankruptcy several times, these costly component groups that were no longer used in production were the first thing to go from spare parts department stock, never to be reordered. They simply went to the "obsoleto" list and that was that.. In addition, they had some suppliers that also failed in business. And those "big" (and small) suppliers still in business need big orders to make a special production run of an older replacement part. With these expensive parts, having a minimum run of perhaps 100 units or more would have cost GG thousands of Euros.. It is that simple.

    Component history as I remember it -

    1985~1989 is one type of Motoplat system with voltage regulator and CDI built together and separate coil - Used in the HALLEY and AIRE models
    1990~1994.5 is another type of Motoplat system with CDI stand alone, Nippon Denso coil and Ducati brand voltage regulator. (Motoplat went out of business in about June 0f 1993)
    Those were the very best systems. The stator would fail in the source coil and the engine would become hard to start, but rewinds are easy and with larger diameter wire, the rewinds last forever. The CDI and coil units are virtually indestructible. (I have a good stock of NOS Motoplat pieces from this system series to prove that point as we sold hundreds of motorcycles with this system here in the states and the electrical systems were and have been incredibly reliable to this day)

    1994.5~1996.5 is - usually - Ducati with combo CDI/coil pack (two versions with different rectifiers) Also a very good system. Only the little pickup coil would fail in the stator and it was identical to a Vespa part that was and likely still is available.

    1996.5~2001 is Kokusan with CDI and coil as separate units.
    The Kokusan system was also incredibly reliable. But of course, It is Japanese!

    2001 to the end of the old engine (last used in the MKIII "blue" Pampera) uses Leonelli which is actually a Spanish company. Again with coil/CDI as one unit similar to the early Ducati systems. This is the least reliable system and I think that heat is the enemy of this system. Bikes ran for long periods in extreme conditions had a pattern of failure. The Pampera with this system, was the one that was the most problematic. And it had a complicated wiring loom with a battery, regulators, turn lamps, flasher, instruments, larger lights. I think it was too much load for this system to handle.

    Leonelli has been for a very long time the supplier of those black plastic handlebar switch assemblies and lighting items in the industry. The Leonelli system was the final option that GG supplied to us as a replacement for all previous models.

    (I will leave the GG Pro model out of this thread but there were twice as many system variations in that series and lots of problems)

    The fix -
    I have worked tirelessly for several years trying to find a "kit" type of system to upgrade these older engines as well as the Pro. All of this fell upon deaf ears at the factory as the company spiraled into bankruptcy over a period of several years. - My very good friends there at GG parts were sorry, but it was not a decision they could make. For quite some time, they were putting out fires and trying to make motorcycles to earn revenue, and the parts for older bikes became less and less of a concern. I think many of you know how "connected" I was, so me not being able to solve this was a frustration for me as I felt responsible to our customers to keep all bikes running, regardless of how old they were. (Simply because this is how trials is. Look at all the vintage trials bikes still in use today. We don't "throw-away" our bikes like they do in MX and Enduro)

    About one year ago, there was a company in Spain that was offering a kit to fix the Pro. (I'm guessing they bought GG components from the supplier during the time the factory was closed)
    I thought; "this is it! My problems with the Pro systems are solved!"
    Everything in one box, HIDRIA brand. So, I bought three kits and they were perfect and a good price. That worked-out so perfect, that I bought three more. The second group of three kits arrived and not a one of them would work. Turned out to be a mismatch of components.

    Finally we figured it out and got those three customers running as they had mixed-up some Jotagas parts with GG as Hidria built the systems for both brands
    But, I lost faith in the company, as I was trying frantically to get these three bikes running, this company in Spain did the classic Spanish game of ignoring me completely, not returning emails, passing the buck when I telephoned, and actually working harder at doing absolutely nothing except to dodge and stonewall me.. (They blew it because I would have spent a lot of money with them)

    After this fiasco, by this time, it was March of 2016 and we were done with GG as you all know .

    BUT, IMHO, I honestly believe that someone out there in this Spanish industry will figure out how to put together a universal "update kit".
    "We" need only two kits. One for the Pro engine, and one for the older engine. As a whole, these systems all interchange as they never changed the bolt pattern on the cases, or the taper and Woodruff keyway location on the crankshaft.

    Believe me, if I had a way, I would be doing this right now. I remain committed to our thousands of USA customers and I will continue to try my best to support these older bikes.
    I have sold-off all the second-hand systems that I could put together, all that remains are my museum collection of complete bikes and I am not going to begin to part-down those bikes.

    I am going to Barcelona, Manresa, and Girona next month for two weeks. Believe me, this is the top of my to do list!

    Best regards in sport. Jim
    #12
  13. NMTrailboss

    NMTrailboss Team Dead End

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    Jim, I for one am grateful that someone with your knowledge and experience with GasGas and the sport of trials in general has decided to join our little forum here on ADV (along with LowPSI and many others)! And the fact that you really try to answer everyone's questions and help with all the issues on here and spend the time to explain everything in detail is just a huge plus to this site. Thanks for spending the time to do this!! :thumb
    #13
  14. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob

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    Thanks for the history lesson Jim. That was interesting. Thanks for your efforts to keep these bikes alive.

    I like this bike a lot for difficult trail riding because of the full 6 gears and full size clutch. I also have a JTX 200 for trials. I would really cry if parts availability stopped it.
    #14
  15. 2whlrcr

    2whlrcr gooligan

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    I'm beginning to dislike my GG again...
    #15
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  16. alpineboard

    alpineboard Been here awhile

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    Not having seen the potted coil/electronics combo, what is preventing carefully removing potted electronics and coil wire wraps, and get down to the plates of the stator bare bones. Then wrap said stator, and create an external cdi. This would work if the problem was the cdi or the windings, but if the problem was the plates in the stator/ insulation, this would be a no go. And realize that while doing this removal , not to damage the stator /plates count number.
    #16
  17. Hoss Cartright

    Hoss Cartright Been here awhile

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    Someone with your very high level of expertise is needed in this sport. I can imagine that you could be very busy fixing these expensive and many times no longer available trials ignition systems for all the brands. The sport needs you.
    #17
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  18. alpineboard

    alpineboard Been here awhile

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    The thought did occur. Just another quick thought, if it were to be a bad stator, it may be possible to split the stator plates apart and re glue them together, what happens though, is you end up bending each plate weirdo shape after to work with. Or use heat to get them apart. It also depends on how well the plates were put together to begin with. Or , it may be possible to make new plates. CNC style, I have the cad cam to g code ability, just would be interesting to cut sheet steel on my cnc router table. It might work, seeing that it is thin steel and do multiple passes, but thinking that there is a specific temper to the steel , to be done after, to make the stator more expansion/contraction stable throughout a heat range. Blow torch and a bucket of water...? Could investigate more, of what really happens out there. Thinking in the real world the plates are stamped out rapid fire.
    All this could be done, but to make the end result have a long life span may be the bigger question. Another option would be to farm the plate part of the job to a small one shot mom/pop shop, just for the cutting.
    #18
  19. ADVCoop

    ADVCoop Long timer

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    If it is the stator coils being shorted that you are speaking of, those can be repaired with rewinding. If it is the combo coil and ignition advance box, that may be a slighter bigger hurdle without have a circuit diagram of that box. Unless the diagram I found for the Lionelli system is different than what is on your machine.

    [​IMG]
    #19
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  20. Hoss Cartright

    Hoss Cartright Been here awhile

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    To be clear here,
    On this diagram, EVERYTHING on the yellow wire we have in stock, these components are standard lights and fan related items that were the same for many years.
    #20
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